Public vs Private School funding

[Gralin]

Gralin, your question was flawed and outright incorrect when it was asked. I just added the correct data so that any further conversation would be valid, to which you responded with a passive aggressive, 'ccol', rather than 'oopsie'. Why would I engage with that any further? It's so combative and I don't see the point in discussing things with combative people.

Your figure was about 2.5x away from the true figure. I can only imagine the response if the other side of the argument used something so incorrect.

Yes my number was incorrect the point of the question is the same though.

Private school students are the minority when it comes to students

They're also in a cohort that is there by choice

Why is so much federal funding going yo that group when the public systems in every state are struggling?

I'll ask the same question of the states who aren't meeting their funding obligations in the public sector as well

We all know the answer though so it's not surprising you'd rather argue the semantics of the question than discuss the answer

You were also not the first person to not answer the question so forgive me if it gets tiring but it's a tactic to avoid engaging with the issue

 

[Gruffles]

We all know the answer though so it's not surprising you'd rather argue the semantics of the question than discuss the answer

Once again, taking a combative and insulting approach to the conversation. You talk about being tired of others, this in itself is downright tiring. Quit accusatory tones and maybe you'll get rich discussion. We've tried to have conversation in here already and really, I'm over it. In any case, data is not semantics. It's data. Have some courage and acknowledge an error rather than immediately brush it aside with your fists at the ready. I can guarantee you that there are people with great knowledge and insight that would look at the energy here and choose not to engage.

In an effort to re-engage... as you say, we all know the answer to your questions. I'd rather move on from discussing these inefficiencies and instead talk about possible solutions for the future. Scrap the vce, hsc, etc and centralise the senior curriculum. That should immediately up the funding going to government secondary schools as a start.

 

[Carn The Berries]

Yes my number was incorrect the point of the question is the same though.

Private school students are the minority when it comes to students

They're also in a cohort that is there by choice

Why is so much federal funding going yo that group when the public systems in every state are struggling?

I'll ask the same question of the states who aren't meeting their funding obligations in the public sector as well

We all know the answer though so it's not surprising you'd rather argue the semantics of the question than discuss the answer

You were also not the first person to not answer the question so forgive me if it gets tiring but it's a tactic to avoid engaging with the issue

States are not just not meeting their public school obligations in many cases. Their contribution to the non-government sector is below 20% in a lot of cases.

 

[Gralin]

Once again, taking a combative and insulting approach to the conversation. You talk about being tired of others, this in itself is downright tiring. Quit accusatory tones and maybe you'll get rich discussion. We've tried to have conversation in here already and really, I'm over it. In any case, data is not semantics. It's data. Have some courage and acknowledge an error rather than immediately brush it aside with your fists at the ready. I can guarantee you that there are people with great knowledge and insight that would look at the energy here and choose not to engage.

Yes I misread an article linked by someone else and quoted the wrong number, and yes as an overall point regarding how many students are in one group vs another it relevant

My issue was not with the correct figure being pointed out

In an effort to re-engage... as you say, we all know the answer to your questions. I'd rather move on from discussing these inefficiencies and instead talk about possible solutions for the future. Scrap the vce, hsc, etc and centralise the senior curriculum. That should immediately up the funding going to government secondary schools as a start.

How do you see this improving funding?
Is it from the states saying if they don't have control of the curriculum then they aren't paying and thereby forcing the feds to provide more funding?

Or is it via another method?

States are not just not meeting their public school obligations in many cases. Their contribution to the non-government sector is below 20% in a lot of cases.

You probably won't be surprised that I am not at all bothered by this.

It would be worse if they were meeting their obligations to the private sector while not meeting their obligations to the public sector, as that is all too common and just increases inequality further

I've been pretty clear in here from the start that I'm not really interested in the idea of any public funding for private education, but I'm especially not interested in it at the expense of the public system which currently it 100% is

Not everyone has access to the private system and yes I know in some regional areas the states have let the catholic system deal with primary schools and pretty much removed alternatives so in some locations the reverse about public primary schooling can be true, but that is a symptom of the current funding model that gives them the out

If public schools were fully and fairly funded and resourced (and this doesn't just mean teachers it means support staff, admin, maintenance, capital works, whatever) and at this point there was somehow spare money that couldn't go into public housing or public health or public welfare or infrastructure that was just burning a hole in the governments pocket, I still wouldn't want it going to the private sector because it would start the downward trend to where we are now again

 

[Gralin]

How do you see this improving funding?
Is it from the states saying if they don't have control of the curriculum then they aren't paying and thereby forcing the feds to provide more funding?

Or is it via another method?

Gruffles I should add to this, do you see this as leading to an overall increase in education funding or more a shift to the feds taking on a larger share of the existing funding?

 

[Carn The Berries]

Yes I misread an article linked by someone else and quoted the wrong number, and yes as an overall point regarding how many students are in one group vs another it relevant

My issue was not with the correct figure being pointed out


How do you see this improving funding?
Is it from the states saying if they don't have control of the curriculum then they aren't paying and thereby forcing the feds to provide more funding?

Or is it via another method?


You probably won't be surprised that I am not at all bothered by this.

It would be worse if they were meeting their obligations to the private sector while not meeting their obligations to the public sector, as that is all too common and just increases inequality further

I've been pretty clear in here from the start that I'm not really interested in the idea of any public funding for private education, but I'm especially not interested in it at the expense of the public system which currently it 100% is

Not everyone has access to the private system and yes I know in some regional areas the states have let the catholic system deal with primary schools and pretty much removed alternatives so in some locations the reverse about public primary schooling can be true, but that is a symptom of the current funding model that gives them the out

If public schools were fully and fairly funded and resourced (and this doesn't just mean teachers it means support staff, admin, maintenance, capital works, whatever) and at this point there was somehow spare money that couldn't go into public housing or public health or public welfare or infrastructure that was just burning a hole in the governments pocket, I still wouldn't want it going to the private sector because it would start the downward trend to where we are now again

But it fundamentally changes the point you are/were trying to make. You stated it like the states were only underfunding in the public sector (to support your contention that there are "reasons" why the non-government sector gets preferential treatment. That's actually not the case.

 

[Gralin]

But it fundamentally changes the point you are/were trying to make. You stated it like the states were only underfunding in the public sector (to support your contention that there are "reasons" why the non-government sector gets preferential treatment. That's actually not the case.

No I didn't

What I wrote was

Why is so much federal funding going yo that group when the public systems in every state are struggling?

I'll ask the same question of the states who aren't meeting their funding obligations in the public sector as well

I made no mention about private school funding levels from states at all, but I would ask why they are getting public money when the states aren't not meeting their obligations to the public sector

 

[Carn The Berries]

No I didn't

What I wrote was



I made no mention about private school funding levels from states at all, but I would ask why they are getting public money when the states aren't not meeting their obligations to the public sector

It's implied from the first sentence... You're arguing that the state sector is missing out because of what is going into the non-government sector. I was pointing out that they are being short changed to.

The fact that you believe they shouldn't get anything doesn't change the fact that they are missing out too.

 

[Gethelred]

I've worked in both systems for 24 years, I don't have to.

In fact, my current role has me working directly with students with diagnosed learning difficulties as well as those who are just finding academia challenging. The role is not preparing them for expulsion, by the way.

For the sake of argument...

Say that Reg Grundy35 is correct above, and that private schools do in fact deliberately try and filter students who would bring their average ATAR down to alternatives, whether that's VET and apprenticeships or whatever. If it was happening, at what level of administration would be pushing it? As in, who would be involved/need to be involved and who would be actively in charge of how it's accomplished and would it be able to be kept secret below that level?

In short, would you be in a position to know unequivocally that it isn't going on?

 

[Gruffles]

Gruffles I should add to this, do you see this as leading to an overall increase in education funding or more a shift to the feds taking on a larger share of the existing funding?

I've always advocated for an overall increase in education funding with most, if not all, of it going straight to the government sector.

A level of funding is curriculum linked, so centralising it would force federal government to fund for it. This should be in the form of a funding increase rather than reshuffle, but that's looking at it through a potentially naive lens.

 

[Sttew]

For the sake of argument...

Say that Reg Grundy35 is correct above, and that private schools do in fact deliberately try and filter students who would bring their average ATAR down to alternatives, whether that's VET and apprenticeships or whatever. If it was happening, at what level of administration would be pushing it? As in, who would be involved/need to be involved and who would be actively in charge of how it's accomplished and would it be able to be kept secret below that level?

In short, would you be in a position to know unequivocally that it isn't going on?

You only have to check the annual VCE results (in Victoria) to see that many if not most private schools' results are far from outstanding. No doubt there are some private schools that will weed out students who are academically challenged, but my experience (as a parent of children who attended private schools and relative of someone who worked in the private system for 17 years) is that the majority don't do that. In fact, my experience is that private schools will work closely with struggling students to lift their grades through tutoring etc.

 

[Carn The Berries]

For the sake of argument...

Say that Reg Grundy35 is correct above, and that private schools do in fact deliberately try and filter students who would bring their average ATAR down to alternatives, whether that's VET and apprenticeships or whatever. If it was happening, at what level of administration would be pushing it? As in, who would be involved/need to be involved and who would be actively in charge of how it's accomplished and would it be able to be kept secret below that level?

In short, would you be in a position to know unequivocally that it isn't going on?

It would need to incorporate staff right down to the home room/pastoral carer. You're not going to have a principal/head of school/head of faculty doing this work, there is simply too much other more pressing work that goes on in a school.

To keep that a secret and at a high level would be next to impossible.

 

[Carn The Berries]

You only have to check the annual VCE results (in Victoria) to see that many if not most private schools' results are far from outstanding. No doubt there are some private schools that will weed out students who are academically challenged, but my experience (as a parent of children who attended private schools and relative of someone who worked in the private system for 17 years) is that the majority don't do that. In fact, my experience is that private schools will work closely with struggling students to lift their grades through tutoring etc.

Many (not all) non-government schools are actually expanding their non-VCE pathways to retain students. "Weeding" out non-performing students is a very expensive exercise.

 

[Chief]

In fact, my experience is that private schools will work closely with struggling students to lift their grades through tutoring etc.

It looks like that can end up a double-edged sword as private school kids without the aptitude or drive end up with scores that get them into Uni ahead of others. The lecturers don't hand-hold them and they underperform.

 

[Gruffles]

For the sake of argument...

Say that Reg Grundy35 is correct above, and that private schools do in fact deliberately try and filter students who would bring their average ATAR down to alternatives, whether that's VET and apprenticeships or whatever. If it was happening, at what level of administration would be pushing it? As in, who would be involved/need to be involved and who would be actively in charge of how it's accomplished and would it be able to be kept secret below that level?

In short, would you be in a position to know unequivocally that it isn't going on?

At my school, yes, I'd be in a position to know that it isn't happening.

As just stated by berries above, there's so much work that goes into student academic and social development across multiple levels. We offer VET aligned pathways for students that choose to do that rather than try and push them out. It's completely against why everyone has entered education anyway.

Sorry, I really want to add more but I'm rushing to type this before jumping in a car for a 3hr drive with kids in the back!

 

[Gethelred]

It would need to incorporate staff right down to the home room/pastoral carer. You're not going to have a principal/head of school/head of faculty doing this work, there is simply too much other more pressing work that goes on in a school.

To keep that a secret and at a high level would be next to impossible.

That's why I'm asking Gruffles.

For said system to be an active process, you're absolutely correct that everyone'd need to know. But principals and administrators have a lot of levers they can pull, methods by which they can manipulate certain things to get certain outcomes.

To pull off a murder, you don't do it in broad daylight in front of as many people as you can.

 

[Gethelred]

At my school, yes, I'd be in a position to know that it isn't happening.

As just stated by berries above, there's so much work that goes into student academic and social development across multiple levels. We offer VET aligned pathways for students that choose to do that rather than try and push them out. It's completely against why everyone has entered education anyway.

Sorry, I really want to add more but I'm rushing to type this before jumping in a car for a 3hr drive with kids in the back!

That, I get.

Just wondering if there'd be methods to try and passively discourage students from looking at VCE that could be implemented at administration level or above, how it'd work in practice and how it'd look.

In Year 10, I had my then music teacher tell me and my mum that I shouldn't do music as a VCE subject, not because I wasn't good enough but because as a violinist I'd be competing with violinists from better schools and wasn't likely to do well. Granted, she was an awful person - I got the impression that she didn't particularly like students, teaching or even music - but there'd be any number of people at much higher levels who would have similar opinions and more effective approaches to get the outcome they want.

 

[Gralin]

It's implied from the first sentence... You're arguing that the state sector is missing out because of what is going into the non-government sector.

yes I am

I was pointing out that they are being short changed to.

that doesn't mean that they aren't being funded at the expense of the public system

If they promise to spend 100m
80m public
20m private

and then they go

75m
15m

yes both are underfunded but the money to fully fund public is there they are just choosing to use it to fund private

if it was worse

say

60m
15m

then they would still be underfunding public without private funding but by much less than they are currently

So my position still stands that the public system is missing out due to the private system


Now if they promised 100m

and did

80m
20m

But the public system needed 90m, it would still be underfunded but the government would say they are meeting their funding obligations

currently they are not even doing that and have no plans in Victoria to do it any time soon

meanwhile NSW is cutting funding to public schools

The fact that you believe they shouldn't get anything doesn't change the fact that they are missing out too.

No it doesn't but given I don't think they should get it to begin with I'm more comfortable with them missing out given its a choice to use that system that isn't even open to everyone

A lot of people have to use the public system whether they want to or not, they have to use the school near where they live, they can't afford to move, they are locked into a system and its not being funded fully

if someone chooses to go private and then complain the government isn't chipping in enough I have zero sympathy

 

[Carn The Berries]

That's why I'm asking Gruffles.

For said system to be an active process, you're absolutely correct that everyone'd need to know. But principals and administrators have a lot of levers they can pull, methods by which they can manipulate certain things to get certain outcomes.

To pull off a murder, you don't do it in broad daylight in front of as many people as you can.

I can only speak from my experience in the sector, I find it implausible that this could happen without the involvement of a large number of staff, both senior and non-senior.

I'd be interested in those that do think it happens providing a plausible explanation as to how it would be done without the knowledge of those lower than Principal/DP/Head of House.

 

[Gethelred]

I can only speak from my experience in the sector, I find it implausible that this could happen without the involvement of a large number of staff, both senior and non-senior.

I'd be interested in those that do think it happens providing a plausible explanation as to how it would be done without the knowledge of those lower than Principal/DP/Head of House.

I also think the thing that Gruffles alluded to in their post - that doing it would be antithetical to the reasons why most go into education as a career - is the main impediment. Sure, people get jaded when they get older, but schools are ******* massive enterprises with a lot of very observant people surveying and auditing all taught content at all levels. Everyone's busy, but if anyone caught wind of such a thing happening it'd be around the gossip circuit like lightning.

And anyone who got into education for idealistic reasons would react to hearing such a thing pretty strongly. It'd be in the media or at a teacher's union pretty quick.

 

[Carn The Berries]

At my school, yes, I'd be in a position to know that it isn't happening.

As just stated by berries above, there's so much work that goes into student academic and social development across multiple levels. We offer VET aligned pathways for students that choose to do that rather than try and push them out. It's completely against why everyone has entered education anyway.

Sorry, I really want to add more but I'm rushing to type this before jumping in a car for a 3hr drive with kids in the back!

There seems to be this misconception that anyone in a position of seniority in a non-government school is just there to wring the financial brains out of the system and make it work for their school. I just don't see this as the case at all. The vast majority of Principals have a teaching background and most likely got into the sector to help kids achieve better outcomes. They don't just park that ideology when they get into the big chair.

Business people as school principals is actually becoming more prevalent in the public sector than the other way around.

 

[Carn The Berries]

I also think the thing that Gruffles alluded to in their post - that doing it would be antithetical to the reasons why most go into education as a career - is the main impediment. Sure, people get jaded when they get older, but schools are ******* massive enterprises with a lot of very observant people surveying and auditing all taught content at all levels. Everyone's busy, but if anyone caught wind of such a thing happening it'd be around the gossip circuit like lightning.

And anyone who got into education for idealistic reasons would react to hearing such a thing pretty strongly. It'd be in the media or at a teacher's union pretty quick.

Precisely, even high-end non-government schools (for the most part) aren't money hungry corporate conglomerates, the vast majority of the people involved genuinely want to improve kids' lives, and many have also worked in the public sector.

 

[Chief]

private schools do in fact deliberately try and filter students who would bring their average ATAR down to alternatives, whether that's VET and apprenticeships or whatever

My friend said that was his regular job at his private school.

It was sold as convincing the student to "be realistic" about their chances of getting a good ATAR vs going into a trade.

 

[Gethelred]

My friend said that was his regular job at his private school.

It was sold as convincing the student to "be realistic" about their chances of getting a good ATAR vs going into a trade.

How exclusive was that particular school? As in, extremely high end?

I'm not saying it's not happening, just I can't see how 1) it could be kept a secret, either through only those who need to know not talking about it or through it being administration based and at a policy level that doesn't require people to know what they're doing and 2) it never getting to someone too idealistic to not try and spread it about that X school is deliberately undermining their students to achieve a better ATAR average.

The big impediment - for me - is that schools are extremely manpower heavy enterprises, and like all endeavours involving a lot of people people talk. Keeping a secret under those circumstances would be extremely tricky, and having it not be a secret would be... rather stupid.

Would you send your child to a school in which their education came second to the school's reputation?

 

[The Punter]

There is a school up my way that has a very well-known reputation for managing students out of school to avoid a poor ATAR on their record. I won't name the school as that assertion has been contested in front of me.