Ned Kelly: Hero or Villain

[rooboy]

Many signatures were of known illiterates, many more of small children. Page after page was written by the same hand. Authentic signatures were often obtained by threat.

So there was a study of all the illiterates of the time to see if they signed. I have no doubt there were some shonky signatures, but tens of thousands of them?

We don't know we weren't there, but Ned was most assuredly a hero to many, and that is what the question begs.

 

[medusala]

PC you're not of the Pommy, protestant heritage are you?

Why, is it only WASPS who have a sense of decency and dont fawn over criminals? Bit of a slur on micks isnt it?

 

[Qsaint]

We don't know we weren't there, but Ned was most assuredly a hero to many, and that is what the question begs.

A HEro but why, lets forget anyone after say 1940 odd because they would no have idea. He was used in popular culture in arround 1914 as a good robber, 'even I didn't rob people as much as you' in reference to tax raises. The Irish were mistreated to some extent and things in Ireland certainly weren't great. Is he a hero because he fought back, overlooking he was a murdering a hole? Can we compare him to OBL and parts of the Arab world?

 

[Corpuscles]

Many signatures were of known illiterates, many more of small children. Page after page was written by the same hand. Authentic signatures were often obtained by threat.

err... won't challenge you for evidence you were obviously there?.. were you one of the few who could read and write?

.... were you also in Swanson St (and later up at Melb gaol) as well when the tens of thousands ( historians/ papers reckon circas 40,000+) mass rallied?

 

[Qsaint]

err... won't challenge you for evidence you were obviously there?.. were you one of the few who could read and write?

.... were you also in Swanson St (and later up at Melb gaol) as well when the tens of thousands ( historians/ papers reckon circas 40,000+) mass rallied?

Sorry it was a quote from research done at the vic library, mind you it was from an ex copper, but he did use the forensic boffins on the handwriting

 

[Corpuscles]

Sorry it was a quote from research done at the vic library, mind you it was from an ex copper, but he did use the forensic boffins on the handwriting

Fair enough

I have been privileged to read some of the original Kate and Jim Kelly letters and yes of course many of the signatures were in the same hand.... many folks simply wanted to sign but could not write and the original petition was done in a desperate virtually "last minute "attempt prior to Ned leaving for the first planned hearing at Beechworth.... later adjourned.


History ..... Australian history ..... some good came of it

Yes ! He would be in Guantanamo with not a hope these days !

Oh how the world of justice and humanity has improved more than a century ahead?

 

[just maybe]

Many signatures were of known illiterates, many more of small children. Page after page was written by the same hand. Authentic signatures were often obtained by threat.

That excuse sounds credible.

 

[just maybe]

Are you saying it isnt?

Yes.

 

[Blues_Man]

And who pray tell did he sadistically torture? Saved a young boy from drowning though.

captured 3 cops tied them to a tree and cut their balls out....was witnessed by another cop who evaded capture by hiding in a Wombat hole .

 

[AndSmithMustScore]

Yup William Wallace was a nasty piece of work as well, Nothing roses over the glasses like a rebel and percieved nationalist

Perceived?

He was a Scot trying to rid the invading english from his country.

Nothing perceived about that.

 

[AndSmithMustScore]

ie the legend was built on false acadameia?

The newspaper reports of the time are confident of his guilt and offences

Why have you made no comment on all the biased and corrupt officials involved in this whole saga?

As for the newspapers they were run by rich englismen, of course they wouldn't be biased.

 

[AndSmithMustScore]

Why, is it only WASPS who have a sense of decency and dont fawn over criminals? Bit of a slur on micks isnt it?

Because all the English criminals are called queens and kings and lords and ladies.

They aren't as accountable to the law as others.

An Irishman steals a pig and gets sent to the colonies.

The English aristoracy pillage and plunder whole nations and receive titles for their deeds.

Bit of a slur on the WASPS really.

 

[- PC -]

Yes.

So you are saying Ned Kelly wasnt a thief or murderer?

 

[- PC -]

Why have you made no comment on all the biased and corrupt officials involved in this whole saga?

As for the newspapers they were run by rich englismen, of course they wouldn't be biased.

Bias and corruption was there. Are you also saying Kelly wasnt a thief or murderer but a victim of police verbals and media slanted reporting?

 

[- PC -]

Because all the English criminals are called queens and kings and lords and ladies.

They aren't as accountable to the law as others.

An Irishman steals a pig and gets sent to the colonies.

The English aristoracy pillage and plunder whole nations and receive titles for their deeds.

Bit of a slur on the WASPS really.

Irish thieves and murderers are the same as English thieves and murderers, if you wish to dress one up as heroes and the other as lower than dog ..... then I can accuse you of the same bias you accuse the police and media of

 

[Hap Hapablap]

read peter careys book in yr 12 for english and i have to say it gives a very interesting view of kelly. i think the majority of people see a rebel a hero. he rebelled against the english oppression which has affected the irish at the time. sure he killed men of authority which i dont condone but he was standing up to fight to survive.

 

[funkyfreo]

I think the myth/archetype of the rebel/lawbreaker who did terrible things, but under it all had reasons that pushed him there that we all can relate too, and cheer on while not actually condoning, is not restricted to Ned Kelly.

it is a classic myth, retold in an Australian setting.

 

[medusala]

Because all the English criminals are called queens and kings and lords and ladies.

They aren't as accountable to the law as others.

An Irishman steals a pig and gets sent to the colonies.

The English aristoracy pillage and plunder whole nations and receive titles for their deeds.

Bit of a slur on the WASPS really.

I am not sure how anyone could consider that a slur on WASPS.

And how many micks were prepared to take the King's shilling?

Plenty.

 

[rooboy]

captured 3 cops tied them to a tree and cut their balls out....was witnessed by another cop who evaded capture by hiding in a Wombat hole .

Absolute bullsh1t. Although talking of balls, when Ned was involved in a fist fight with some coppers they subdued him only after grabbing his balls, those big brave cops.

 

[just maybe]

captured 3 cops tied them to a tree and cut their balls out....was witnessed by another cop who evaded capture by hiding in a Wombat hole .

Sounds credible.

 

[just maybe]

So you are saying Ned Kelly wasnt a thief or murderer?

Maybe, maybe not.

Your determination to give a definitive answer is a pitfall.

 

[rooboy]

I am not sure how anyone could consider that a slur on WASPS.

And how many micks were prepared to take the King's shilling?

Plenty.

What the f#ck are you on about. If it's the only shilling around . Or are you talking about dobbing him in for money? That would also be crap.

 

[Corpuscles]

So you are saying Ned Kelly wasnt a thief or murderer?

Are you talking about actions after the Declaration of Outlaw or before?

Before:
Thief, possible due to association with Harry Power as a teenage accomplice, and general petty theft which was common amongst impoverished. The later George King (stepfather) involved in horse russling Served time for two raps due unwillingness to dob in other family & friend . Harassed and unfairly charged at times by police
No murder. However might have shot Fitzpatrick's hand in self defence?

After:
Thief- beyond question , Euroa and Jerilderie holdups!
Murder - very debateable, he went to extreme lengths to indicate Springybark Creek incident was at worse manslaughter
Glenrowan - Attempted murder maybe, but was never charged or tried for that.

Had no recourse as part of Declaration was a sanction to hunt & shoot him on sight without trial. He had seen the justice his mother with young baby got 3yrs hard labour from the alleged participation in Fitzpatrick incident.

 

[AndSmithMustScore]

Irish thieves and murderers are the same as English thieves and murderers, if you wish to dress one up as heroes and the other as lower than dog ..... then I can accuse you of the same bias you accuse the police and media of

Irish theives were often only that because they were denied the basic human rights to own their own lands which were taken from them in the first place.

Don't compare a poor sod who's had his lands taken from him by the Crown, to the ******** Crown who stole it from him through force.

The two aren't comparable.

 

[- PC -]

Irish theives were often only that because they were denied the basic human rights to own their own lands which were taken from them in the first place.

Don't compare a poor sod who's had his lands taken from him by the Crown, to the ******** Crown who stole it from him through force.

The two aren't comparable.

So you would support aboriginal thievery ?