This one was covered not that long ago with a couple of excellent posts (starting here)!!: Resource - List thread - Inaccuracy in official records
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Research Missing DOD or DOB for League players (AFL)
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- #1,152
Excellent if you do say so yourself
But I agree, they are fantastic posts! Well done, extremely detailed! I knew I'd read the name before. I even 'liked' it at the time. Good stuff, I'll crosscheck this thread more thoroughly before I go digging for any more.
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- #1,153
Just so you know regarding your list, Richmond's Jack Atkinson is still alive at 95. I interviewed him in late 2022, and am in email contact with his son.
en.wikipedia.org
Jack Atkinson (Australian footballer) - Wikipedia
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- #1,154
Another for the potentially confusing father/sons.
Lindsay Baglin (DOB 2 March 1929), originally from Newport / Williamstown Presbyterians, is almost certainly Lindsay Gordon Baglin.
Not to be confused with his father, Lindsay John Baglin, who died in 1996.
One can only assume that Lindsay Gordon Baglin is still going, which is good news. By my back-of-the-envelope calculations, he is North Melbourne's third oldest living player, and Footscray's sixth oldest living player.
Lindsay Baglin (DOB 2 March 1929), originally from Newport / Williamstown Presbyterians, is almost certainly Lindsay Gordon Baglin.
Not to be confused with his father, Lindsay John Baglin, who died in 1996.
One can only assume that Lindsay Gordon Baglin is still going, which is good news. By my back-of-the-envelope calculations, he is North Melbourne's third oldest living player, and Footscray's sixth oldest living player.
My oldest living (actually "no death date" than confirmed living) player lists from Wikidata, for those that prefer to work by team than league wide:
North Melbourne
Footscray
Other teams:
* Essendon
* Melbourne
If you spot someone that is incorrect (ie some of the recent finds), please either update it yourself if you know how or reply and one of use who edit regularly can do it
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- #1,156
Thanks Pope. I saw you'd made the Wikidata updates to our recent finds, as well as updating that ToDo page on WP:AFL. I actually wasn't aware that Wikidata didn't pull in 'live' updates from pages on Wikipedia. Appreciate you keeping on top of that for us!
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- #1,157
I think I may have found Pat Harrington (DOB 18 March 1929), of the pre-1930 'possibly living' list. He was listed as "Ex-St Kilda second and Coragulac" in the Encyclopedia.
A cursory Google search for "Pat Harrington Coragulac" pulled up this article for a hotel robbery in Camperdown in December 1951. It lists a Patrick Keith Harrington of "Coronnun [sic] via Colac", aged 23 years. If the DOB is correct he would have actually been 22 at the time, but we do often see those minor discrepancies in newspaper articles. Corunnun is directly adjacent to Coragulac, which itself is 13km north-west of Colac.
Here's confirmation in 1954 that the South Melbourne Harrington was from Colac and played in the St Kilda seconds:
And here's a Ryerson listing with a DOD of 2 July 2011 for a Patrick Keith Harrington.
The funeral itself was held in Colac.
A final check of Ancestry with the above details shows that in fact the league's DOB for Harrington was incorrect (off by one day and one year), the newspaper article of the robbery had his age correct, and that this is our man.
Summary: Update DOB for Patrick Keith "Pat" Harrington to 17 March 1928. Add DOD of 2 July 2011.
A cursory Google search for "Pat Harrington Coragulac" pulled up this article for a hotel robbery in Camperdown in December 1951. It lists a Patrick Keith Harrington of "Coronnun [sic] via Colac", aged 23 years. If the DOB is correct he would have actually been 22 at the time, but we do often see those minor discrepancies in newspaper articles. Corunnun is directly adjacent to Coragulac, which itself is 13km north-west of Colac.
Here's confirmation in 1954 that the South Melbourne Harrington was from Colac and played in the St Kilda seconds:
And here's a Ryerson listing with a DOD of 2 July 2011 for a Patrick Keith Harrington.
The funeral itself was held in Colac.
A final check of Ancestry with the above details shows that in fact the league's DOB for Harrington was incorrect (off by one day and one year), the newspaper article of the robbery had his age correct, and that this is our man.
Summary: Update DOB for Patrick Keith "Pat" Harrington to 17 March 1928. Add DOD of 2 July 2011.
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- #1,158
I'm not sure how it was missed given he got a full obituary on the Demons website, but Ray Hutchins died circa January / February 2021.
All the facts in the article link up with everything that Supermercado has written on his Demonwiki page, so it's definitely the same guy. The photo in the article also helps tick another name off Demonwiki's "players without photos" list.
As an aside, the note on Demonwiki that Ray Hutchins "may have been the Merv Hutchins made a Life Member in 1961" is made impossible with this note from a 1954 Demons classified which shows a Ray Hutchins and a Merv Hutchins in two different places at the same time.
The only issue is that I can't find an exact date of death anywhere. Ancestry has turned up nought in my quick perusal.
Can anyone complete the puzzle here? Thanks.
All the facts in the article link up with everything that Supermercado has written on his Demonwiki page, so it's definitely the same guy. The photo in the article also helps tick another name off Demonwiki's "players without photos" list.
As an aside, the note on Demonwiki that Ray Hutchins "may have been the Merv Hutchins made a Life Member in 1961" is made impossible with this note from a 1954 Demons classified which shows a Ray Hutchins and a Merv Hutchins in two different places at the same time.
The only issue is that I can't find an exact date of death anywhere. Ancestry has turned up nought in my quick perusal.
Can anyone complete the puzzle here? Thanks.
That obituary does say:
He was Raymond Ferris Hutchins, then. I can't see the DOD anywhere, either.
Based on that electoral roll info, parents married in 1925, mum died in 1959, dad in 1968.
Interesting that Dad didn't have Ferris on his marriage or electoral roll, but does in his death notice
Marriage:EVANS Nellie HUTCHINS, Mervyn 1925 10866/1925
HUTCHINS Mervyn Ferris Death notice 14AUG1968 Death late of Prahran The Age (Melbourne) 15AUG1968
HUTCHINS Nellie Death notice 02JUN1959 Death 57 at Prahran The Age (Melbourne) 04JUN1959
No real help in finding Ray's details!
Note there is also a Ray Hutchins from Sale who was the winning trainer of the 1973 Melbourne Cup, but photos from then put him far too old to be the footballer. So don't bother with that branch.
- Jul 26, 2014
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Nice work - he was one of three I have in my records that are not in wikidata (I've been reconciling data sources for half the afternoon)
The other two are ones on Find a Grave - but I've had edits reverted for using find a Grave as source on wikipedia!
Ernie Collihole - died 14/09/1985 according to Find a Grave but would be good to confirm via another source as often these are interment dates
Jim Broockmann - died 31/10/2011 according to Find a Grave - this one at least has an image of the plaque so we know the date is right
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- #1,163
WP can be touchy with references at the best of times. I reckon the best way is probably to wait for it to get updated on AF, and then use that as the source.
Re: Collihole, every single death record on Ancestry as the 14 Sep 1985 date. I'm learning that sometimes these trees can be a bit self-fulfilling, but given the owner of the tree at the bottom is at least connected enough to know they were called "Ernie", I'd be fairly happy to go with 14 Sep 1985... at least until the next time I'm in Swan Hill!
Btw, any luck with hearing back from the Roger "Distance" Hearn tree owner?
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- #1,164
The Richmond page seems fine - no one stands out as an error.
Though Richmond don't have contact details for Kevin Webb (I've asked Footscray if they do and am waiting back) our oldest living player.
And the James Williams 1957-58 , and Martin Davis 1956 I assume are all still alive, we don't know as we have no contact details for them either.
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- #1,165
Another one from the pre-1930 'possibly living' list. There really is a lot to be said for going through literally every birth prior to say 1950. As sad as that is.
Charles William "Charlie" King, DOB 31 July 1926, originally from Sandhurst (Bendigo) and played six games for Geelong in 1949.
Ancestry doesn't have a middle name for Charles, but I think that's just oversight more than anything. Looks like he and his father had the same name.
There are three Ryerson listings that name him as Charles William King. The fact that his death – in Caloundra – was published in the Bendigo Advertiser before any other publication suggests he still had strong ties to the area, and that it is the very same Charles King who was born in Bendigo.
Summary: Add DOD of 12 September 2007 for Charles William "Charlie" King.
Charles William "Charlie" King, DOB 31 July 1926, originally from Sandhurst (Bendigo) and played six games for Geelong in 1949.
Ancestry doesn't have a middle name for Charles, but I think that's just oversight more than anything. Looks like he and his father had the same name.
There are three Ryerson listings that name him as Charles William King. The fact that his death – in Caloundra – was published in the Bendigo Advertiser before any other publication suggests he still had strong ties to the area, and that it is the very same Charles King who was born in Bendigo.
Summary: Add DOD of 12 September 2007 for Charles William "Charlie" King.
There are some updates for South Melbourne players. I will check tomorrow. Pat Harrington wasn’t one of them.
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The tree owner on Ancestry responded really quickly saying it wasn't his direct tree but would follow up with the person whose tree it was. The question I asked was "Do you have a source or are you able to confirm the 2 Nov 1949 date? It would be wonderful to be able to fill in this gap in football records"
He just passed on this response 10 min ago "with regard to your question Roger (Distance) Hearn B. 1914 -- D. 2 Nov. 1949... around Oodnadatta. My paper work shows there were 13 siblings. My grandmother was 10th."
Not exactly a clear answer but maybe the Oodnadatta clue might help turn something up?
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- #1,168
Re: Doug Guy...
This could be tangential. But I'd like to rule it out.
The birthdays are only eight days away (could be a simple missed keystroke for 29 November vs 21 November). Heidelberg is only 10km from East Brunswick. Players often went by their middle names back in the day.
Here's some of the evidence against it:
This article from July 1953 talks about Doug Guy as a brewery employee, when Keith Douglas Guy in the 1954 electoral roll was a moulder.
This old database of Northcote cricket players (unfortunately the link is dead, but Google still crawled it) only shows a "D. Guy" who played, and as we know, cricketers are usually referred to by their full initials.
But, you never know. And of course, Mr Guy could still be with us! If anyone would know, it's probably Tony de Bolfo...
This could be tangential. But I'd like to rule it out.
The birthdays are only eight days away (could be a simple missed keystroke for 29 November vs 21 November). Heidelberg is only 10km from East Brunswick. Players often went by their middle names back in the day.
Here's some of the evidence against it:
This article from July 1953 talks about Doug Guy as a brewery employee, when Keith Douglas Guy in the 1954 electoral roll was a moulder.
This old database of Northcote cricket players (unfortunately the link is dead, but Google still crawled it) only shows a "D. Guy" who played, and as we know, cricketers are usually referred to by their full initials.
But, you never know. And of course, Mr Guy could still be with us! If anyone would know, it's probably Tony de Bolfo...
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- #1,169
Thanks mate. A lead is a lead! Oodnadatta is certainly very remote. That could work for us (less people to search through) or against us (impossible to track down).
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- #1,170
Well...! I'm not about to get too excited, but there is absolutely every chance that Roger Musgrove "Bill" Hearn left for South Australia some time after 1940, and started going by "William" Hearn, given his numerous run-ins with the law back in Victoria.
And that he died in South Australia around the time of the 2 Nov 1949 date specified.
And that this is our man.
Granted, Frome is a bloody long way from Oodnadatta, but we can't leave any stone unturned here.
GreyCrow could you please use your Genealogy SA subscription to let us know what appears? The parents we are looking to match it with are Richard William Hearn and Sarah Jane Hearn (nee Dempsey). Both were deceased by 1949.
Thanks!
EDIT: For what it's worth, I double checked Ancestry, and there are zero tree listings for a William Hearn who died either side of 1949 in South Australia (you can disregard the top one, it was their closest match but obviously not our guy). Ergo, William Hearn doesn't "exist" outside of this death record.
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- #1,172
Thank you! I had seen the name Douglas George Guy in electoral rolls too, so I figured he might be a chance.
Are the pennant records public? I've seen you refer to them a couple of times; seems like they're pretty handy
They're very handy. I have downloaded the latest copies a few times over the years. The ones I now have cover the seasons 1889-90 to 2021-22 - so they're a couple of years out of date, and for some reason I cannot now find a download spot for even the ones I have, let alone updated versions of the files. So I don't know what's going on with that! The names of the records are e.g.: Register of V.C.A. 1st XI Pennant, District & Premier Cricketers: 1889-90 to 2021-22 D to H
I can certainly send you what I have. There's 5 files (.pdf, and the file size is quite small). I don't think I can send it through BF, but can certainly do it via email if you like.
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- #1,175
Searching for clues on Ivan Clues...
The only record of him in any trees on Ancestry shows a different birth date to what accepted records have. The league / Encyclopedia has Clues born on 10 May 1929, while this tree has him born on 5 October 1929.
The following is a bit of speculation on my behalf, but given Ancestry doesn't allow living people to be searched in trees, and this is the Clues family tree, my mind is turning to one of two conclusions: either Clues has died and the tree owner hasn't listed or made public his death date (it is a private tree), or the tree owner is not particularly au fait with Ancestry and has added Clues manually recently without unticking the 'deceased' button which Ancestry would presume when you are adding someone born in 1929. Not sure, but there might be more out there.
I guess the only other explanation is that no one knows his death date, if it's already happened?
See below: I'm not convinced the Ivan Noel Clues from Collingwood and the Ivan Clues from Queensland are the same guy.
There really is nothing else in the Ancestry records to go off, other than the fact he got married in 1949:
The only thing making me think that the Collingwood and Queensland person might be one and the same is that it appears Clues didn't list his middle name in his marriage certificate, and it was added by an Ancestry user after the fact, so perhaps he was inconsistent in applying his middle name to official documents.
Regardless, I'm none the wiser right now.
P.S. Shout-out to Collingwood Forever who have written a wonderfully detailed article on a two-game player!
The only record of him in any trees on Ancestry shows a different birth date to what accepted records have. The league / Encyclopedia has Clues born on 10 May 1929, while this tree has him born on 5 October 1929.
The following is a bit of speculation on my behalf, but given Ancestry doesn't allow living people to be searched in trees, and this is the Clues family tree, my mind is turning to one of two conclusions: either Clues has died and the tree owner hasn't listed or made public his death date (it is a private tree), or the tree owner is not particularly au fait with Ancestry and has added Clues manually recently without unticking the 'deceased' button which Ancestry would presume when you are adding someone born in 1929. Not sure, but there might be more out there.
I guess the only other explanation is that no one knows his death date, if it's already happened?
See below: I'm not convinced the Ivan Noel Clues from Collingwood and the Ivan Clues from Queensland are the same guy.
There really is nothing else in the Ancestry records to go off, other than the fact he got married in 1949:
The only thing making me think that the Collingwood and Queensland person might be one and the same is that it appears Clues didn't list his middle name in his marriage certificate, and it was added by an Ancestry user after the fact, so perhaps he was inconsistent in applying his middle name to official documents.
Regardless, I'm none the wiser right now.
P.S. Shout-out to Collingwood Forever who have written a wonderfully detailed article on a two-game player!
