Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

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royals1922 said:
Fitzroy player again.

Jim Tulloch apparently plays round 1 of 1898 ( and no other game)

He's listed as having been recruited from Pembroke.

Indeed the Australasian of 14 May 1898 confirms this

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article138666616

And is probably the source of the entry for the Wikipedia page.

Except that the Age of 22 August 1898 lists a Tulloch who is playing for Pembroke as P Tulloch not J Tulloch

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article191496607

Tulloch appears to have been junior cricketer for Pembroke

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article108482126

But it is not stated that there were 2 of them.
Click to expand...

This is report of Jim Tulloch (James Purcell T) getting married
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/64263808

Note his second given name is shown as Purcell,
but later electoral roll records and his death notice give it as Percival.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/11817757
 
the croucher said:
David Charles McGrath was elected to House of Reps for seat of Ballarat on 10 July 1920
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/4596632

This set of reports on matches played on 10 July comments on McGrath (Fitzroy) being away at Ballarat
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/140261848

and this article comments on DG McGrath being a son of DC McGrath (MHR for Ballarat)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/101011442

confirmed then that DC & DG are father and son
https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/indexsearch.doj?viewSequence=200&language=en&trxId=IDX&commandAction_displayDetailsAction=04600E9EC12E62C8CDFFD96602A13E7E
Click to expand...
I accept the above.

But is there evidence that a player with the initials D C or just D McGrath played in the turn of the century game.

I'll explain my process and you'll see how the query developed.

I look at a player who played usually 3 or less games, then check his playing record on the detailed games played site, the Australian football site and the Wikipedia site.

My final search is Trove search his name in Victorian sources and then Australian sources for the year he plays the game to check the weeks before he is said to have played until the weeks after specifically and then the entire year.

If a query develops say over a date of birth or game played or name I run it through a more exhausting bank of Trove searches.

Often some other issue may arise as a stroke of serendipity but if the query is answered it might go no further.

My query withMcgrath is that from memory he was in a raft of changes required by injury. He was playing st Kilda and not even the local Fitzroy press reported it well.

The Trove reports didn't name McGrath and from recollection McGrath snr is not named as playing footy for Fitzroy when reports about junior playing were published as I would have expected.
 

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royals1922 said:
I accept the above.

But is there evidence that a player with the initials D C or just D McGrath played in the turn of the century game.

I'll explain my process and you'll see how the query developed.

I look at a player who played usually 3 or less games, then check his playing record on the detailed games played site, the Australian football site and the Wikipedia site.

My final search is Trove search his name in Victorian sources and then Australian sources for the year he plays the game to check the weeks before he is said to have played until the weeks after specifically and then the entire year.

If a query develops say over a date of birth or game played or name I run it through a more exhausting bank of Trove searches.

Often some other issue may arise as a stroke of serendipity but if the query is answered it might go no further.

My query withMcgrath is that from memory he was in a raft of changes required by injury. He was playing st Kilda and not even the local Fitzroy press reported it well.

The Trove reports didn't name McGrath and from recollection McGrath snr is not named as playing footy for Fitzroy when reports about junior playing were published as I would have expected.
Click to expand...

Yes, my post was more simply to confirm that DC & DG were related.
Like you, I cannot find any evidence that McGrath played for Fitzroy on 11 Aug 1900.
 
I've started looking at the available St Kilda records on Trove pre 1902 and they are very average.
 
royals1922 said:
Percy Abercrombie of South Melbourne definitely used the name John Abercrombie so that confirms the SMH report.

See the permits of the Argus of 14 June 1906


http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10041732

This also confirms that Jimmy Luff of Fitzroy was actually James Luff of Richmond who possibly was related to Bill Luff or might , in fact , ie a brother of Bill Luff.

Also there is a permit for a JF or JP Fagan to Northcote. Football stats only has him Jim Fagan and he has no wiki page. While his Australian Football page does not list his 2nd name when the permit says he had one. Question - have they got the wrong Fagan. Is there a James P or James F Fagan that should be the player.

One of the funniest names in VFL history , Dick Bliss of South Melbourne has his permit there from boulder being Richard Bliss.
Click to expand...

re: Fagan
Yes the page in The Argus is a bit fuzzy isn't it.

This one in The Age is sharper:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/189375708

JP Fagan. Mystery - Ancestry search so far cannot find a JP in electoral rolls !
Will keep on searching for a person with those initials in post-WW1,
but am not sure I'll find anything. There are of course a few J Fagan's with just one initial.
 
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35Daicos said:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/189366785

J P Fagan only went to St Kilda from North Melbourne a few weeks earlier (The Age 10 May 1906).

The 'Encyclopedia' has him as Jim P. Fagan, ex-North Melbourne (VFA).
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Those early St Kilda records are a nightmare to "audit", I'm finding. Often for the 1 or 2 games players, there is no teamsheet, no reference to the player playing or even being at St Kilda that year or any year, in Trove.

I'll give you blokes an example. Dave Gaunson. Uncommon name but a chap with that name was a prominent name was a lawyer at a time and there are many references to Gaunson the lawyer.

One would assume a son, but the actual references that establish a nexus are thin on the ground.

Even Jim P Fagan may in fact be taken from his permit entry.
 
Found this article about St Kilda in the Argus of 30 July 1949 which in setting out the potted history of the clubs gives names to some of the early St Kilda players and other biographical data.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article22768415

Makes it also easier to check dates of birth.
 
royals1922 said:
Those early St Kilda records are a nightmare to "audit", I'm finding. Often for the 1 or 2 games players, there is no teamsheet, no reference to the player playing or even being at St Kilda that year or any year, in Trove.

I'll give you blokes an example. Dave Gaunson. Uncommon name but a chap with that name was a prominent name was a lawyer at a time and there are many references to Gaunson the lawyer.

One would assume a son, but the actual references that establish a nexus are thin on the ground.

Even Jim P Fagan may in fact be taken from his permit entry.
Click to expand...

David Scott Gaunson married in 1900, noted as being son of David Gaunson, a solicitor.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/12820628

Looks like Gaunson snr was Ned Kelly's lawyer:
http://adb.anu.edu.au/lifesummary/gaunson-david-3599
 

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Found another change for 1899

12 Aug 1899
Round 14 : Melbourne v South Melbourne

Leo Rankin played rather than Dan Moriarty for Melbourne

See The Argus and The Herald (match reports are on p3)

Will give Rankin (who later died on service in WW1) a second game in his career
 
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Another change for 1897. Carlton Rnd 1. Only this time it is the biographical detail.

William Joseph John Ahern is listed as the name of a player who supposedly played for Carlton in the first match of 1897.
His birthdate is listed as 24 June 1873, birthplace North Melbourne.
A search of the Vic public records shows his parents as being Jeremiah and Kate (nee Biddle).

Because his death date on some footy websites is listed as unknown, I decided to search some public records to try and find a match.

A William J Ahern (parents listed as Jeremiah and Kate) died in New South Wales in 1881.


Looks like Carlton, & others, have a different Bill Ahern to find.
 
the croucher said:
Another change for 1897. Carlton Rnd 1. Only this time it is the biographical detail.

William Joseph John Ahern is listed as the name of a player who supposedly played for Carlton in the first match of 1897.
His birthdate is listed as 24 June 1873, birthplace North Melbourne.
A search of the Vic public records shows his parents as being Jeremiah and Kate (nee Biddle).

Because his death date on some footy websites is listed as unknown, I decided to search some public records to try and find a match.

A William J Ahern (parents listed as Jeremiah and Kate) died in New South Wales in 1881.


Looks like Carlton, & others, have a different Bill Ahern to find.
Click to expand...
Ahern was playing prior to 1897 for Carlton.
 
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royals1922 said:
Ahern was playing prior to 1897 for Carlton.
Click to expand...
Are you sure? The Blueseum page for Ahern says "Ahern had been recruited from Preston"

http://www.blueseum.org/tiki-index.php?page=Bill+Ahern

This page has a few snippets on Preston history, and suggests he was at that club from 1893-1896:-

William Ahern
News of the existence of Ahern came through our 2003 affiliation with Carlton when one of their historians asked whether a couple of Carlton players had appeared with Preston.� Amongst the names was William Ahern, who played his one and only game in the very first round of V.F.L. football and was not sighted again.��� Ahern played with Preston form 1893 to 1896, although his first two seasons comprised just a handful of games.� In 1896, he played in eleven of the twelve games where team-sheets have been sighted; his career after his time with Carlton is unknown.

http://www.sportingpulse.com/get_file.cgi?id=117678
 
35Daicos said:
Are you sure? The Blueseum page for Ahern says "Ahern had been recruited from Preston"

http://www.blueseum.org/tiki-index.php?page=Bill+Ahern

This page has a few snippets on Preston history, and suggests he was at that club from 1893-1896:-

William Ahern
News of the existence of Ahern came through our 2003 affiliation with Carlton when one of their historians asked whether a couple of Carlton players had appeared with Preston.� Amongst the names was William Ahern, who played his one and only game in the very first round of V.F.L. football and was not sighted again.��� Ahern played with Preston form 1893 to 1896, although his first two seasons comprised just a handful of games.� In 1896, he played in eleven of the twelve games where team-sheets have been sighted; his career after his time with Carlton is unknown.

http://www.sportingpulse.com/get_file.cgi?id=117678
Click to expand...
I'll check. Trove is not user Friendly on a phone but if you trove search Ahern and Carlton football club prior to 1897 , you get a few hits. This is also complicated by the Bill ahern who played for the saints in 1897.

Good times...
 
royals1922 said:
I'll check. Trove is not user Friendly on a phone but if you trove search Ahern and Carlton football club prior to 1897 , you get a few hits. This is also complicated by the Bill ahern who played for the saints in 1897.

Good times...
Click to expand...
Yes, the other Bill Ahern played for Fitzroy and Melbourne in the Association days before playing for St Kilda (1896 & 1897).
 
Another name inaccuracy for an early Carlton player.
"Bobadil" Hooper played 14 games for Carlton in 1899.

All sites/records that I can see refer to him as being named Bobadil (Wikipedia, Blueseum) - or even Robert/Bob (AustralianFootball)

However, reports in 1899 always seem to refer to "Bobadil" as a nickname (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)
Given the meaning/derivation of Bobadil it is unlikely this is his actual given name!

A photo of him in Punch refers to him as J. Hooper

A search on Ancestry turned up:
Birth Record
Name: John William Hooper
Birth Date: 1878
Birth Place: Carlton, Victoria
Registration Year: 1878
Registration Number: 7277
Parents: John William Hooper, Rebecca Friezer

Death Record
Name Jno Hooper
Birth Year: abt 1877
Age: 51
Death Place: Northcote, Victoria
Father's Name: Jno Hooper
Mother's Name: Rebecca
Registration Year: 1928

which matches the birth/death dates in official records. John William lived in Carlton area for most of his life.

Almost certainly the player in question...
 
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WhiteHartLane23 said:
Another name inaccuracy for an early Carlton player.
"Bobadil" Hooper played 14 games for Carlton in 1899.

All sites/records that I can see refer to him as being named Bobadil (Wikipedia, Blueseum) - or even Robert/Bob (AustralianFootball)

However, reports in 1899 always seem to refer to "Bobadil" as a nickname (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)
Given the meaning/derivation of Bobadil it is unlikely this is his actual given name!

A photo of him in Punch refers to him as J. Hooper

A search on Ancestry turned up:
Birth Record
Name: John William Hooper
Birth Date: 1878
Birth Place: Carlton, Victoria
Registration Year: 1878
Registration Number: 7277
Parents: John William Hooper, Rebecca Friezer

Death Record
Name Jno Hooper
Birth Year: abt 1877
Age: 51
Death Place: Northcote, Victoria
Father's Name: Jno Hooper
Mother's Name: Rebecca
Registration Year: 1928

which matches the birth/death dates in official records. John William lived in Carlton area for most of his life.

Almost certainly the player in question...
Click to expand...
The AFL Historical Statistics site had him as John Hooper, so the AFL may well have it right.

The Encyclopedia of AFL Footballers calls him J. Bob Hooper. It says he played 15 games (all in 1899), rather than 14 games which is shown in other sources. Edit: I see Blueseum has him playing 15 games on his "main page", 14 on this one:- http://www.blueseum.org/1899+Playing+List.
 
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the croucher said:
Any update on all those "incorrect player list" questions ?

Doesn't seem to have been any comment for a month or more.
Click to expand...
Sadly, I still haven't heard anything from the AFL History/Statistics folks regarding this, it would be nice to have confirmation of the changes to the records that were made. I see from AFL Tables that the Richmond related changes have been made, otherwise, not sure what's happened!

Ideally, the AFL people would be keeping an eye on this thread and investigate matters of interest, presumably that hasn't happened. I certainly haven't reported (to them) any of the more recent revelations that have come along.

http://afltables.com/afl/changes.html

Recent additions/changes/corrections

February, 2016
10th: Changes to Richmond lineups 1916. Rd 5, Thorp in for Collopy; Rd 6, Bettles in for Stewart; Rd 8, Collopy in for Burns; thanks Rhett B.
 

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Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

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