Conspiracy Theory Kennedy Assassination - 50 years on

[Kellythatsit]

http://www.news.com.au/world/new-fo...fk-assassination/story-fndir2ev-1226767479975

Hmmm ...

Will be interesting to see what happened here. Still, I find it incredibly odd that after half a century the owner is just releasing this now? I mean wouldn't this have been handy to show to the Warren commission, or any of the other investigations that have covered this? Certainly could have helped if it is genuine and shows something that no other photo or film does.

And why wait fifty years to cash it in? How could the owner have been sure that the film would be worth anything by now. Surely you'd think that the best time to sell would have been right after the assassination occurred, when the media were red hot and chasing any thing that could even be associated with Dealy Plaza. This would have been huge and the bidding wars would have been astronomical.

Anyway, let's wait and see shall we?

Though something tells me this will the last we hear of it.


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[buddyruff]

His head went BACK and to the left. BACK..and to the left...

 

[Partridge]

So yes, there was a second shooter, but no, it wasn’t a conspiracy, just a terrible accident.

I have no idea whether its complete baloney, whether it’s been thoroughly debunked or it’s a fresh theory. JFK stories aren’t really my thing.

But it was an entertaining premise.

Anyone heard of this one? Any comments/criticisms?

Yep, I have heard of it, and yes, it has been thoroughly debunked. It was an AR15 too, good call.

Unfortunately for this "theory" (in the loosest possible term), there is photographic evidence of him bringing the gun up - AFTER Kennedy was dead. After the third and fatal shot in other words. So if he did happen to shoot someone no bullet was ever found and JFK had already been mortally wounded.

If that is the story I've read about, the agent's name was George Hickey and he sought action against a publisher who released a book about it. Got as close to a retraction as you could get too.

 

[Partridge]

What do you guys think about the 'Shots came from behind that picket fence theory'??

One word - bullshit.

Oswald did it. A mountain of evidence supports it. As Vincent Bugliosi said (and remember he was a prosecutor before he started writing books - he convicted Manson after all), there was more than enough evidence to secure a quick conviction. The reason any conspiracy theories have legs is because he never had his day in court, and therefore most people aren't aware of exactly how much evidence there is.

Plus basic human psychology, we believe weird things. Takes a lot of effort to not run wild and believe fairy tales.

 

[Glacier]

One word - bullshit.

Oswald did it. A mountain of evidence supports it. As Vincent Bugliosi said (and remember he was a prosecutor before he started writing books - he convicted Manson after all), there was more than enough evidence to secure a quick conviction. The reason any conspiracy theories have legs is because he never had his day in court, and therefore most people aren't aware of exactly how much evidence there is.

Plus basic human psychology, we believe weird things. Takes a lot of effort to not run wild and believe fairy tales.

Very certain aren't you ?
So over all the years since and all the time that has passed you are dead set certain that Oswald was the lone gunmen, no other correspondence entered into...that's an interesting stance and good for you
Throughout the world that also puts you in the minority, but seeing as you have already supposedly made up your mind simply by calling bullshit on someone's question, then I guess that's it then and the world can sleep easily knowing its all solved

 

[Partridge]

Very certain aren't you ?
So over all the years since and all the time that has passed you are dead set certain that Oswald was the lone gunmen, no other correspondence entered into...that's an interesting stance and good for you
Throughout the world that also puts you in the minority, but seeing as you have already supposedly made up your mind simply by calling bullshit on someone's question, then I guess that's it then and the world can sleep easily knowing its all solved

I would sooner trust the word of two investigative journalists who studied the subject in great depth, plus the Warren Commission, than half-arsed "experts" who have a particular theory they're fond of.

If people have a theory, great. Prove it. Provide evidence. Not ifs, buts and maybes.

There are a mountain of facts that support the conclusion that Oswald acted alone. There are very few that support any other conclusion.

 

[BustedWing]

Yep, I have heard of it, and yes, it has been thoroughly debunked. It was an AR15 too, good call.

Unfortunately for this "theory" (in the loosest possible term), there is photographic evidence of him bringing the gun up - AFTER Kennedy was dead. After the third and fatal shot in other words. So if he did happen to shoot someone no bullet was ever found and JFK had already been mortally wounded.

If that is the story I've read about, the agent's name was George Hickey and he sought action against a publisher who released a book about it. Got as close to a retraction as you could get too.

Sounds pretty definitive, and yeah the name Hickey rings a bell for me, so I reckon we are talking about the same story.

Cheers!

 

[Kellythatsit]

Very certain aren't you ?
So over all the years since and all the time that has passed you are dead set certain that Oswald was the lone gunmen, no other correspondence entered into...that's an interesting stance and good for you
Throughout the world that also puts you in the minority, but seeing as you have already supposedly made up your mind simply by calling bullshit on someone's question, then I guess that's it then and the world can sleep easily knowing its all solved

Oh Glacier, so melodramatic

Because so many people find solace in conspiracy theories rather than the findings of the Warren Commission doesn't make those findings any less sound.

I'd point out that the majority of these dissenters to the WC findings have likely never even read the report themselves and instead rely on other sources, such as Oliver Stone's propaganda extravaganza.

With regards to calling BS on the Grassy Knoll theory, I whole heartedly concur with that statement. There is absolutely no evidence that there was a shooter stationed there besides limited and uncompelling ear witness testimony. The only way it could possibly be true is if the shooter was invisible, firing invisible bullets, all of which missed any target ...

Hang on, I think I just came up with a new theory ...



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[Glacier]

Yes, Oswald did do it.
No, he was not part of a conspiracy.
No, he was not a "patsy".

Here's some facts to ponder:

1. The Carcano rifle found in the Texas Book Store Depository building was ordered and paid for by Oswald.
2. Oswald worked in the building.
3. He was the only employee not present 45 minutes after the assassination.
4. His fingerprints were on the rifle.
5. Shell casings were found near the 6th floor window.
6. He was a trained marksman in the marines.
7. The only bullets or bullet fragments recovered came from Oswald's rifle.
8. The first shot missed. So anyone who thinks it was a freakishly amazing feat of marksmanship needs to explain why he obligingly missed the first shot.
9. It was a cheap rifle, which made sense as he had very little money.
10. After he left the Book Store Depository building, he went home by taxi (for the first time in his life), and grabbed his .38 pistol. Hardly the act of a guy on his day off (which he claimed).
11. He shot and killed at point blank range a police officer who confronted him.
12. He hid in a movie theatre and attacked the policemen who eventually arrested him.
13. He tried to assassinate Major General Edwin Walker months before Kennedy.
14. He was seriously unstable and violent from an early age.

Ok so lets look at some of these points then, just for shits and giggles shall we
1-the first police at the scene identified the rifle as a 7.65 Mauser, by the time of the Warren commission this had become a 6.5 Carcano,
2- so ?
3- says who ? The Warren Commission ?
4- on the Carcano, most definitely , but what about that Mauser ?
5- tends to happen when a gun goes off
6- a trained marksman ? He also had a rep of not being able to hit the side of a barn too
7- Was that the " magic" bullet you speak of?
8- Many witnesses say there were as many as 8 shots fired
9- Relevance ?
10- Ask yourself why he went home and got his .38, unless he knew that he was in danger and most probably already a suspect
11- A witness to this shooting said that the man who shot this police officer was not Oswald
12- And ?
13- Proof ?
14- Again , proof ?

So we can see from this that one mans proof is another's , what was the word you used, bullshit ??
Delve into the deaths in the following months of 21 key players in the day and the investigation and ask yourself if things are still black and white

 

[Kellythatsit]

Yep, I have heard of it, and yes, it has been thoroughly debunked. It was an AR15 too, good call.

Unfortunately for this "theory" (in the loosest possible term), there is photographic evidence of him bringing the gun up - AFTER Kennedy was dead. After the third and fatal shot in other words. So if he did happen to shoot someone no bullet was ever found and JFK had already been mortally wounded.

If that is the story I've read about, the agent's name was George Hickey and he sought action against a publisher who released a book about it. Got as close to a retraction as you could get too.

Oh is that the Hickey theory.

Wow these conspiracy theorists have even begun recycling old and debunked claims. That one surfaced back in the early 70s I think. It was thoroughly discredited at the time and you're correct, Hickey sued for an out of court settlement and retraction. I admit I never actually read the theory when I first heard of it because by that stage it had already been retracted.

As usual though, any theory, even something as laughable as this one, is good enough as long as it disagrees with the official findings.




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[Glacier]

Oh Glacier, so melodramatic

Because so many people find solace in conspiracy theories rather than the findings of the Warren Commission doesn't make those findings any less sound.

I'd point out that the majority of these dissenters to the WC findings have likely never even read the report themselves and instead rely on other sources, such as Oliver Stone's propaganda extravaganza.

With regards to calling BS on the Grassy Knoll theory, I whole heartedly concur with that statement. There is absolutely no evidence that there was a shooter stationed there besides limited and uncompelling ear witness testimony. The only way it could possibly be true is if the shooter was invisible, firing invisible bullets, all of which missed any target ...

Hang on, I think I just came up with a new theory ...



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Haha
Maybe it's just my penchant for having a second look at things before I accept as gospel
You know, kind of having a mind of my own...
Anyway, carry on

 

[Partridge]

Ok so lets look at some of these points then, just for shits and giggles shall we
1-the first police at the scene identified the rifle as a 7.65 Mauser, by the time of the Warren commission this had become a 6.5 Carcano,
2- so ?
3- says who ? The Warren Commission ?
4- on the Carcano, most definitely , but what about that Mauser ?
5- tends to happen when a gun goes off
6- a trained marksman ? He also had a rep of not being able to hit the side of a barn too
7- Was that the " magic" bullet you speak of?
8- Many witnesses say there were as many as 8 shots fired
9- Relevance ?
10- Ask yourself why he went home and got his .38, unless he knew that he was in danger and most probably already a suspect
11- A witness to this shooting said that the man who shot this police officer was not Oswald
12- And ?
13- Proof ?
14- Again , proof ?

So we can see from this that one mans proof is another's , what was the word you used, bullshit ??
Delve into the deaths in the following months of 21 key players in the day and the investigation and ask yourself if things are still black and white

For Question 6:

Really? Did he? When? From whom? In 1956 he qualified as a sharpshooter (FACT), and then in 1959 he qualified as a marksman (FACT). Somehow I think if he couldn't "hit the side of a barn" that wouldn't occur.

For Question 10:

Why would be a suspect if he was innocent?

For Question 11:

A witness said it wasn't? Well, Helen Markham positively identified Oswald in a police lineup, so did Barbara and Virginia Davis. Last I checked 3 is more than 1.

For Question 12:

And? Are you serious? So if a policeman approaches you the first thing you normally try and do is pull a gun on them?

For Question 13:

Marina Oswald testified to it.

For Question 14:

Proof? How about threatening his brother's wife with a knife, or being violent towards his own mother? Nah that doesn't count. How about being court-martialled for fighting with a sergeant in the Marines?

 

[Predator35]

1-the first police at the scene identified the rifle as a 7.65 Mauser, by the time of the Warren commission this had become a 6.5 Carcano

Seymour Weitzman was the policeman who identified the gun as a 7.65 Mauser. He swore an affadavit that he saw a German Mauser "after" the rifle discovery. Weitzman previously owned a sporting goods store where guns and ammo were sold so he was familiar with different types of firearms.

6- a trained marksman ? He also had a rep of not being able to hit the side of a barn too

In the marines there is 3 levels of shooting ability. Expert,sharpshooter and marksman. Oswald only managed to qualify as a marksmen by 1 point. If you fail this test you are kicked out of the marines.

 

[Glacier]

10- who said he was innocent ?
11- Markham never identified Oswald, as a suggestion I suggest you re read the transcript of the line up
Fact is that others who witnessed the shooting of Tippit said there were two gunmen involved and fact is bullets of different make were pulled from his body
12- as above, do some study and find out what other witnesses said and also about the type of gun used, bullets found and what gun Oswald actually had and try again
13- Marina Oswald - be serious
14- again, prove it rather than just quote the Warren Report ver batim

 

[Glacier]

Seymour Weitzman was the policeman who identified the gun as a 7.65 Mauser. He swore an affadavit that he saw a German Mauser "after" the rifle discovery. Weitzman previously owned a sporting goods store where guns and ammo were sold so he was familiar with different types of firearms.


In the marines there is 3 levels of shooting ability. Expert,sharpshooter and marksman. Oswald only managed to qualify as a marksmen by 1 point. If you fail this test you are kicked out of the marines.

Precisely
At last, someone who's done a bit of study

 

[Predator35]

10. After he left the Book Store Depository building, he went home by taxi (for the first time in his life), and grabbed his .38 pistol. Hardly the act of a guy on his day off (which he claimed).

If you believe the Warren Commision he went home on a bus. A bus pass was found in his jacket time stamped PM.

Something thats always bothered me is if your going to kill the president wouldn't you have taken your .38 as well as your rifle. Would save having to go back to your room to get it. Seems to point to me that maybe Oswald didn't know what was going to happen that day.

 

[Partridge]

In the marines there is 3 levels of shooting ability. Expert,sharpshooter and marksman. Oswald only managed to qualify as a marksmen by 1 point. If you fail this test you are kicked out of the marines.

Correct. Now, is a marksman in the Marines as good with a rifle as the normal guy on the street, or maybe just a little bit better? I'm guessing slightly better.

 

[Partridge]

If you believe the Warren Commision he went home on a bus. A bus pass was found in his jacket time stamped PM.

Something thats always bothered me is if your going to kill the president wouldn't you have taken your .38 as well as your rifle. Would save having to go back to your room to get it. Seems to point to me that maybe Oswald didn't know what was going to happen that day.

Or maybe he was a bit of a nutcase too. He did catch a bus at first, then caught a taxi. For someone who never had much money that seems unusual.

 

[Partridge]

10- who said he was innocent ?
11- Markham never identified Oswald, as a suggestion I suggest you re read the transcript of the line up
Fact is that others who witnessed the shooting of Tippit said there were two gunmen involved and fact is bullets of different make were pulled from his body
12- as above, do some study and find out what other witnesses said and also about the type of gun used, bullets found and what gun Oswald actually had and try again
13- Marina Oswald - be serious
14- again, prove it rather than just quote the Warren Report ver batim

You prove it. The onus is on you. If you have an alternative theory - someone else did it - then provide evidence rather than just dismissing masses of evidence that disagrees with you.

Watch out for those aliens too. I reckon they might have had a hand in it as well.

 

[Glacier]

If you believe the Warren Commision he went home on a bus. A bus pass was found in his jacket time stamped PM.

Something thats always bothered me is if your going to kill the president wouldn't you have taken your .38 as well as your rifle. Would save having to go back to your room to get it. Seems to point to me that maybe Oswald didn't know what was going to happen that day.

Patrolman Summers from dispatch car 221 said that one suspect was heavy set with curly brown hair carrying a .32, descriptions gleaned from witnesses at the scene

 

[Partridge]

Patrolman Summers from dispatch car 221 said that one suspect was heavy set with curly brown hair carrying a .32, descriptions gleaned from witnesses at the scene

Did they find .32 bullets in Tippit's body?

 

[Glacier]

You prove it. The onus is on you. If you have an alternative theory - someone else did it - then provide evidence rather than just dismissing masses of evidence that disagrees with you.

Watch out for those aliens too. I reckon they might have had a hand in it as well.

Haha here we go
You put the points together earlier yet now can't back up those points but turn to attempt at scorn because you are too lazy to back up what you called evidence when said evidence is questioned ??
So does this mean you said these points were evidence and therefore fact but upon questioning they become now your opinion ?
That's fine, I'm not questioning your opinion and value it immensely , however you called bullshit on someone else and now squirm under pressure
Ok..

 

[Glacier]

Did they find .32 bullets in Tippit's body?

No, found 38's by two different manufacturers actually , but thanks for bringing that up

 

[Glacier]

Or maybe he was a bit of a nutcase too. He did catch a bus at first, then caught a taxi. For someone who never had much money that seems unusual.

Oh convict him
He caught a bus
Or was it a taxi ?
Doesn't matter, he's guilty either way

 

[Partridge]

Haha here we go
You put the points together earlier yet now can't back up those points but turn to attempt at scorn because you are too lazy to back up what you called evidence when said evidence is questioned ??
So does this mean you said these points were evidence and therefore fact but upon questioning they become now your opinion ?
That's fine, I'm not questioning your opinion and value it immensely , however you called bullshit on someone else and now squirm under pressure
Ok..

I am definitively calling BULLSHIT on any other theory that does not provide at least as much evidence as there is against Oswald. If there is a theory with merit great - it improves our understanding. I mean evidence for something, not flimsy dismissals against Oswald.

If a photo turns up with a guy holding a rifle on the grassy knoll, great. We don't have that. If another shell fragment turns up from another gun, great. We don't have that either.

So why did the Warren commission say it was just Oswald? Any idea?