Mid East Israel declare war after Hamas attack II

[Gethelred]

Part I:

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack.

Breaking the law. 'International humanitarian law prohibits a siege of Gaza, UN human rights commissioner says From CNN's Eve Brennan Ravina Shamdasani speaks at the Palais des Nations in Geneva, Switzerland, on September 7, 2018. Ravina Shamdasani speaks at the Palais des Nations in...

www.bigfooty.com

Thread Rules:

Alright.

I recognise that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have connections to either side of the conflict. What you need to understand is that this site has rules governing posting standards and the appropriate way to talk to other posters, and you will abide by them.

How this interacts with this thread is that the following will result in your post being deleted, with a recurrence of the same behaviour resulting in (depending on severity) a threadban for a week and a day off:

• direct labelling of someone as anti-semitic or a terrorist sympathiser for posting that is merely critical of Israel's response over time. I appreciate that Israel has the right to defend themselves from violence, but that does not mean that Israel has carte blanche to attack disproportionately towards people under their care.
• deliberate goading or flippant responses, designed to get people reacting to your posting emotionally.
• abuse.
• attempts to turn this into a Left vs Right shitfight.
• If I see the word 'Nazi' in here, you had better be able to justify it in the post you're making and the comparison had better be apt. Godwin's law is in full effect for the purposes of this thread; if you refer to Nazis, you've lost whatever argument you're involved in.
• Any defense of Hamas' actions on the basis of justification. There's no justification for genocide, regardless of whether or not they have the power to do so.

Please recognise that this is a difficult time for all involved, and some level of sensitivity is absolutely required to permit discussion to flow. From time to time, mods will reach out to specific posters and do some welfare checks; we may even give posters who get a bit too involved some days off to give people some time to cool down. This is not a reflection on you as a poster, merely that this is an intense subject.

I get that this is a fairly intense topic about which opinion can diverge rather significantly. If you feel you cannot be respectful in your disagreement with another poster, it is frequently better to refuse to engage than it is to take up the call.

From this point, any poster who finds themselves directly insulting another poster will find themselves receiving a threadban and an infraction, with each subsequent reoccurance resulting in steadily more points added to your account.

If you accumulate enough points in a 12 month period you will lose privileges:

5 points - 1 week off.
10 points - 2 weeks off
15 points - 3 weeks off
20 points - Account banned.

It has also become apparent that this needs to be said: just because someone moderates a part of this forum that isn't on Int Pol or the SRP does not hold them to a different standard of posting than anyone else. All of us were posters first, and we are allowed to hold opinions on this and share them on this forum.

Treat each other with the respect each of you deserve.

Thanks all.

Play nicely, all.

 

[Gethelred]

I have never told anyone to do anything. Your opinion is yours. Mine is mine. Each is entitled to their own.

This is redundant to say, and about the only occasion in which anyone asserts their 'right to an opinion' is when they want to defend a s**t one from criticism.

No-one is questioning your right to hold an opinion, even a s**t one. What is being questioned - in this exchange at least, by me - is the logic of your argument and its absurdity.

If you don't like someone pointing out that your argument is absurd, perhaps don't make absurd arguments?

All I have said is that i dont support the full abandonment of Israel. That doesn't mean we can't sanction them, remove funding of items etc etc. Abonnement means ALL. not some. ALL - again you say you read posts. I'm not sure you are being honest about that.

... tell you what.

Don't accuse me of being a liar, and I won't point out the dramatic misrepresentation of other people's posting inherent in some of yours and/or that you are actively excusing genocide in this thread by virtue of advocating inaction.

Sound good?

You just want it to be black and white.

You just want to be able to put me in a box. It's what you've tried multiple times, in order to discount what I've said: that I don't read this thread or have not been honest about whether I have, that I want the situation to be black and white.

Cease trying to make this about me.

This entire exchange has hardly been about the war at all. It's about you and your arguments in support of Israel, and that you cannot deal with how absurd they look when exposed.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

This is redundant to say, and about the only occasion in which anyone asserts their 'right to an opinion' is when they want to defend a s**t one from criticism.

No-one is questioning your right to hold an opinion, even a s**t one. What is being questioned - in this exchange at least, by me - is the logic of your argument and its absurdity.

If you don't like someone pointing out that your argument is absurd, perhaps don't make absurd arguments?

... tell you what.

Don't accuse me of being a liar, and I won't point out the dramatic misrepresentation of other people's posting inherent in some of yours and/or that you are actively excusing genocide in this thread by virtue of advocating inaction.

Sound good?

You just want to be able to put me in a box. It's what you've tried multiple times, in order to discount what I've said: that I don't read this thread or have not been honest about whether I have, that I want the situation to be black and white.

Cease trying to make this about me.

This entire exchange has hardly been about the war at all. It's about you and your arguments in support of Israel, and that you cannot deal with how absurd they look when exposed.

Again, I did not say this.

There really is no point in us conversing any further if you are going to keep alleging things i simply did not say.

 

[Gethelred]

Again, I did not say this.

There really is no point in us conversing any further if you are going to keep alleging things i simply did not say.

Specificity trap.

"I did not say precisely what I implied. I WILL NOT tolerate this egregious slander of my name!"

Again, your posts are still there. You're not being censored, and your opinion is still just as absurd as the first time you penned it. If you want to back off feel free, but affecting the pretense that you've not implied an awful lot of things you don't want to be accused of saying is juvenile and a fine example of intellectual cowardice.

Own your words, instead of hiding behind them.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

Specificity trap.

"I did not say precisely what I implied. I WILL NOT tolerate this egregious slander of my name!"

not sure i can do much about your mind running with things, i guess.

I am simply not typing the things you are alleging so again this is moot.

i dont agree that the only action is to abandon Israel entirely. If you dont like that view, i dont care and its not what Australia nor anyone else is doing in reality. You are entitled to whatever view you want though.

basically, what you're saying is if I'm not bashing Israel, then i support what they are doing 100%. Laughably simplistic view.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Just saw on the news U.S police standing by while supporters of the Zionist Cancer attacked pro-Palestinian student protest camps.

Pro-Palestinian protesters attacked, hundreds arrested in increasingly violent encampment

Footage of the clashes at the University of California in Los Angeles, shows people wielding sticks and letting off fireworks.

www.abc.net.au

May 02 2024

...On Tuesday, UCLA officials announced that the encampment was unlawful and violated university policy. UCLA Chancellor Gene Brock said it included people "unaffiliated with our campus", though he provided no evidence of the presence of outsiders.

Footage from the early hours of Wednesday morning showed mostly male counter-demonstrators, many of them masked and some apparently older than students, throwing objects and trying to smash or pull down the wooden and steel barriers erected to shield the encampment.

Some screamed pro-Jewish comments as pro-Palestinian protesters tried to fight them off.

"They were coming up here and just violently attacking us," said pro-Palestinian protester Kaia Shah, a researcher at UCLA.

"I just didn't think they would ever get to this, escalate to this level, where our protest is met by counter-protesters who are violently hurting us, inflicting pain on us, when we are not doing anything to them."

Police said they had responded to a request from UCLA to restore order and maintain public safety "due to multiple acts of violence" within the encampment.

Broadcast footage later showed police clearing a central quad beside the encampment...

 

[Ghost Patrol]

I have never told anyone to do anything. Your opinion is yours. Mine is mine. Each is entitled to their own.

All I have said is that i dont support the full abandonment of Israel. That doesn't mean we can't sanction them, remove funding of items etc etc. Abonnement means ALL. not some. ALL - again you say you read posts. I'm not sure you are being honest about that.

You just want it to be black and white. I dont believe it is.

So you want to sanction them, while at the same time providing support?

 

[HirdsTheWord]

So you want to sanction them, while at the same time providing support?

again, attempts to make this a black and white argument. It isn't.

You can support Israels fight against Hamas whilst at the same time decry the way they are doing it.

As much as you think we all need to hate Israel 100% or nothing, that's not how the world works.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

again, attempts to make this a black and white argument. It isn't.

You can support Israels fight against Hamas whilst at the same time decry the way they are doing it.

As much as you think we all need to hate Israel 100% or nothing, that's not how the world works.

So it's like supporting a murderer (which you don't agree with), by baking him a cake?

 

[Chief]

So it's like supporting a murderer (which you don't agree with), by baking him a cake?

Is it his birthday?

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Is it his birthday?

No, just a regular cake.

 

[Chief]

No, just a regular cake.

Made from scratch or bought from the shops?

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Made from scratch or bought from the shops?

Yes.

 

[Chief]

Yes.

Does it have stuff concealed in it? Like a hacksaw blade or fighter jets?

 

[DangerousD]

Im not sure if I’ve missed the chat but have people been discussing the ICC potentially issue in arrest warrants for Netanyahu and others? The more i read in regards to anything about this conflict, the more absurd stuff sounds, in a media address yesterday Netanyahu specifically mentioned that due to the Holocaust that Israel couldn’t be guilty of genocide.

The response from the USA in relation to these developments is disgusting and absurd, making direct threats to the ICC and pressuring them to not go ahead with this.

This is a quote from an article from Axios.com (not sure of their credibility)

• U.S. and Israeli officials said Israel told the Biden administration that if arrests warrants are issued, it will consider the Palestinian Authority responsible and retaliate with strong action that could lead to its collapse.

This is a quote from an Aljazeera article today.

Anti-Semitism’​

Senior Israeli officials have demanded assurances from the ICC that Israel will not be targeted, suggesting any action might constitute “anti-Semitism”.

Foreign Minister Israel Katz pushed on Sunday for the ICC to waive any threat that it could target Israelis over the war, which has killed more than 34,000 Palestinians and pushed hundreds of thousands towards famine.

“We expect the court [ICC] to refrain from issuing arrest warrants against senior Israeli political and security officials,” Katz said.

 

[Saint]

I think Israel might have got word about deliberations going against them and they're making a big song and dance to try to get the ICC to reduce their requirements.

Threatening not to comply or to undertake collective punishment would make the ICC look toothless, so perhaps Israel are trying to get them to go soft (which would also make them toothless).

Israel don't do things by halves. They press all political and military buttons.

One can hope that one day people like this will be held to account, but while the US rules, they can protect criminals within Governments and are the actual rulers, rather than the ICC.

 

[Chief]

Israel don't do things by halves. They press all political and military buttons.

A modern industrial war state. Chase your enemy to ground, destroy them, and salt the earth so they can't come back.

 

[Saint]

A modern industrial war state. Chase your enemy to ground, destroy them, and salt the earth so they can't come back.

Israel are attacking aid agencies, journalists, computer systems, proxies, international media groups, social media, the political systems of allies, the political systems of enemies, the UN, the ICJ.

The fight within them, and the undermine them from outside as well. They defend themselves within the ICJ while saying they won't comply outside. They say the UN should rule on things, then don't obey any UN rulings. THey demand legitimacy while denying it to Palestine. There's not a lie they won't tell or line they won't cross if they believe it's best for their nation.

They're very much like Russia in this respect. They're big, sophisticated nations who don't do all their fighting just with guns and bombs. They'll break every rule unless it's imposed on them and they know other nations are too unwilling to impose anything, so just do as they please.

 

[QuietB]

Social cohesion is impossible when the national business model is division

We're spending millions on social cohesion. But how cohesive can Australia be when it deliberately excludes so many groups?

www.crikey.com.au

 

[Santana]

Has there ever been a superpower so utterly owned by such a small country like Israel in history? Truly amazing

 

[QuietB]

Im not sure if I’ve missed the chat but have people been discussing the ICC potentially issue in arrest warrants for Netanyahu and others? The more i read in regards to anything about this conflict, the more absurd stuff sounds, in a media address yesterday Netanyahu specifically mentioned that due to the Holocaust that Israel couldn’t be guilty of genocide.

The response from the USA in relation to these developments is disgusting and absurd, making direct threats to the ICC and pressuring them to not go ahead with this.

This is a quote from an article from Axios.com (not sure of their credibility)

• U.S. and Israeli officials said Israel told the Biden administration that if arrests warrants are issued, it will consider the Palestinian Authority responsible and retaliate with strong action that could lead to its collapse.

This is a quote from an Aljazeera article today.

Anti-Semitism’​

Senior Israeli officials have demanded assurances from the ICC that Israel will not be targeted, suggesting any action might constitute “anti-Semitism”.

Foreign Minister Israel Katz pushed on Sunday for the ICC to waive any threat that it could target Israelis over the war, which has killed more than 34,000 Palestinians and pushed hundreds of thousands towards famine.

“We expect the court [ICC] to refrain from issuing arrest warrants against senior Israeli political and security officials,” Katz said.

Bolded is completely absurd. Israel the state is completely and totally morally bankrupt.

 

[Not Important]

precisely. the standard you walk past, is the standard you accept.

 

[Not Important]

 

[Not Important]

a reminder. antony is amazing.

 

[QuietB]

This seems very apt

 

[Blue1980]

Same with Idi Amin, and they're still finding his victims in the lake.

But there are people who think action shouldn't be taken against Israel until they're found guilty in a court which they'll refuse to show up to.

It's precisely the lesson the world was supposed to learn. That they can't sit idly by and allow genocide to happen.

Russia haven’t been found guilty of war crimes re Ukraine have they? But the western world had no issue sanctioning them within 2 seconds (justifiably I might add)

When it comes to a US client state doing an ethnic cleansing though, you must wait for an official verdict which could take years before any sanctions.

It’s all just make uppey when it’s really “Do whatever the US tells their allies to do”.