International Development

[jatz14]

Started this thread as it seems worthy of discussion, and the topic is invading other threads.

Discuss what you know of development, overall and in specific countries, where it is going right, where it is going wrong, what should be attainable, what is not. Is it important, should it not be bothered with?

My personal opinion is overseas growth is/should be an important strategic objective of football, but a question is, should it be an important strategic objective of the AFL? Should the game have an independent international body? Can it have an independent international body given the sports cash cow is the AFL?

Generally, I am pessimistic, the game grows in fits and start here and there, gets introduced in few more, and people point to it as progress However, it also shrinks in fits and starts here and there, and fades away in some places it had been, and no one points this out as regression. Overall, progress seems to be getting made, but frankly, it will take centuries of the current progress to achieve anything.

I have looked at minor sports in Australia, to compare with Football in places like Canada, to compare, and get a feel for the challenges football faces, but frankly, I am having trouble finding established sports small enough to make the comparison valid.

An example, I looked at Lacrosse, a sport I had an intro to at school (lacrosse at the time could have counted me a participant), and while I enjoyed it while actually playing it, my interest in the sport overall was zero To my knowledge, none of the large number of kids at my school who played lacrosse during school ever showed the slightest desire to take it up. One of the reasons I am suspicious of participants listed including school programs.

I have never seen Lacrosse played in WA, never seen local lacrosse clubs on the sports news, it is basically invisible. However, when I look up lacrosse in WA, the biggest of the local clubs Wanneroo-Joondalup, has 27 ******* teams. They have 4 teams of U13 girls. The suburbs of Wanneroo and Joondalup, have more lacrosse juniors than the entire ******* province of Ontario (population about 13 million) has footy juniors.

Footy in Canada is the proverbial mile behind lacrosse in Australia, and I find that very depressing.

 

[jatz14]

Are we expecting to much of the AFL here. People seem to forget that the L in AFL stands for league. Gillon is hired to run that league, not world football. Is it unrealistic, or even unfair to expect that the AFL will invest limited resources into developing things like overseas junior programs on anything like the scale that would be needed to make a difference. For instance, to advance Europe, each country would need a junior program, and if you are serious, each significant city in each country would need a junior program. You run into some serious dollars quickly that way.

 

[RedV3x]

Discuss what you know of development, overall and in specific countries, .

IMO to have a meaningful discussion about Australian Football overseas you first have to recognize that different regions have different approaches.
Significant investment in the southern hemisphere w.r.t. the RSA, PNG and NZ.
AFL Combines in North america and England.
Some add hoc large promotions.
Modest investment in the South Pacific. Some help with organic football in Europe, North America and Asia.

Each country is unique. Canada for example .
Everybody knows that Ontario has this strong two divisional league typically quoted as the best outside Australia.
It has women's and junior football. It has some coverage on TV and radio.
Western Canada has picked up the pace with new teams across B.C. and Alberta.
Vancouver is home to the biggest school program outside of the AFL supporting a junior league.
Calgary is following in Vancouver's footsteps.
Alberta is really booming with women's football with about half the women's Canadian team coming from the west coast.
Eastern Canada has teams in nova Scotia and Newfoundland.
Despite Canada having Canadian Football there is no opposition to a new football in fact just the opposite
with curiosity generating interest.
Vancouver still holds the record for the largest overseas crowd with over 32,000 attending B.C. Place.
Toronto had a number of games around 20,000

What does Canada need ?
IMO Canada could leverage huge gains with only modest outlay.
Vancouver is instructors to meet the demand, whilst Calagary is educating the teachers.
The next step would be set up vibrant schools competition.
AFL is available on TSN2 in Canada but football would benefit in a reduction in the cost of the AFL pass to spread the word.
I have already stated that expanding the AFL pass to show the International cup would be a big boost.
When I say it could be a "big boost", I mean it facilitates AFCs drawing newcomers.
That is basically follows the "each bring person bring a friend" principle, still one of simplest and best approaches.

We now have two AFL teams in NSW and two AFL teams in Qld - who would have thought.
For football overseas the RSA, PNG, NZ and the growth in the number of players, clubs, leagues especially w.r.t
women, juniors and school programs gives rise to optimism.
As well we see the rise in number, quality and status of tournaments including attendances and economic impact.
IMO it's fantastic what volunteers have achieved with their "organic growth".
If we measure the development of Australian Football as more people enjoying the game then it has been an outstanding success.
If we measure the development of Australian Football as some goal-orientated comparison then it has a long way to go.

Edit:
North Delta JAFL is the feeder club of the Burnaby Eagles AFC which play in the N.W. Pacific AFL.
Canada is the current womens' Australian Football world champions and will be defending their title at the upcoming 2017 I.C. (one team only this time).

 

[jatz14]

IMO to have a meaningful discussion about Australian Football overseas you first have to recognize that different regions have different approaches.
Significant investment in the southern hemisphere w.r.t. the RSA, PNG and NZ.
AFL Combines in North america and England.
Some add hoc large promotions.
Modest investment in the South Pacific. Some help with organic football in Europe, North America and Asia.

Each country is unique. Canada for example .
Everybody knows that Ontario has this strong two divisional league typically quoted as the best outside Australia.
It has women's and junior football. It has some coverage on TV and radio.
Western Canada has picked up the pace with new teams across B.C. and Alberta.
Vancouver is home to the biggest school program outside of the AFL supporting a junior league.
Calgary is following in Vancouver's footsteps.
Alberta is really booming with women's football with about half the women's Canadian team coming from the west coast.
Eastern Canada has teams in nova Scotia and Newfoundland.
Despite Canada having Canadian Football there is no opposition to a new football in fact just the opposite
with curiosity generating interest.
Vancouver still holds the record for the largest overseas crowd with over 32,000 attending B.C. Place.
Toronto had a number of games around 20,000

What does Canada need ?
IMO Canada could leverage huge gains with only modest outlay.
Vancouver is instructors to meet the demand, whilst Calagary is educating the teachers.
The next step would be set up vibrant schools competition.
AFL is available on TSN2 in Canada but football would benefit in a reduction in the cost of the AFL pass to spread the word.
I have already stated that expanding the AFL pass to show the International cup would be a big boost.
When I say it could be a "big boost", I mean it facilitates AFCs drawing newcomers.
That is basically follows the "each bring person bring a friend" principle, still one of simplest and best approaches.

We now have two AFL teams in NSW and two AFL teams in Qld - who would have thought.
For football overseas the RSA, PNG, NZ and the growth in the number of players, clubs, leagues especially w.r.t
women, juniors and school programs gives rise to optimism.
As well we see the rise in number, quality and status of tournaments including attendances and economic impact.
IMO it's fantastic what volunteers have achieved with their "organic growth".
If we measure the development of Australian Football as more people enjoying the game then it has been an outstanding success.
If we measure the development of Australian Football as some goal-orientated comparison then it has a long way to go.

Do you have any knowledge of what is happening in SA. That started with a bang, then went quiet. Not sure if it's because it dropped off, or they just do not post much detail on the net.

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[RedV3x]

Do you have any knowledge of what is happening in SA.

The partnership between the AFL, the Australian Government, the South African government and Costa Logistics is still going strong
and has matured into many open-age AFCs in at least four provinces. The evidence can be seen by the rise of the R.S.A. in the world rankings.
Currently the R.S.A. is ranked 5th. Considering the numbers playing in the R.S.A. they seem to be a little short on talls.

You don't hear anything about the R.S.A. IMO because the AFL is waiting to promote the first local product.
The story of their coach playing in the SANFL needs a makeover.
Despite over 700 volunteers working for football in the R.S.A. you don't get much publicity.

IMO the next step in development would be to establish a relationship with the W.A.F.L. is some way.
The W.A.F.L is closer, cheaper and perfect for interaction and promotion.

 

[jatz14]

The partnership between the AFL, the Australian Government, the South African government and Costa Logistics is still going strong
and has matured into many open-age AFCs in at least four provinces. The evidence can be seen by the rise of the R.S.A. in the world rankings.
Currently the R.S.A. is ranked 5th. Considering the numbers playing in the R.S.A. they seem to be a little short on talls.

You don't hear anything about the R.S.A. IMO because the AFL is waiting to promote the first local product.
The story of their coach playing in the SANFL needs a makeover.
Despite over 700 volunteers working for football in the R.S.A. you don't get much publicity.

IMO the next step in development would be to establish a relationship with the W.A.F.L. is some way.
The W.A.F.L is closer, cheaper and perfect for interaction and promotion.

South Africa represents a perfect opportunity. While soccer is strong, the dominant code in terms of profile and coverage is Union, but that lacks penetration in the townships and poorer areas. A general lack of sporting opportunity or options in these areas means anyone willing to go in, work and create those options is likely to get some uptake.

Bringing it all together is the challenge.

Nice to hear it's still progressing.

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[RedV3x]

South Africa represents a perfect opportunity.

Mainly because of the the partnership between the AFL, the Australian Government, the South African government and Costa Logistics underwrites developmental costs.
Jim Maine wrote "The South African government is currently keen to adopt Australian Football as the 'new sport for the new South Africa'. Because soccer has been the sport of black South Africans and rugby union the sport of white South Africans, the government has been searching for a new game that has widespread appeal and combines the skill of both codes. the AFL's push into this new market has grown quickly with the employment of 19 full-time staff and the education and training of a further 700 volunteers and teachers across four provinces."

This isn't hard to understand because the first non-racial league was only introduced in 1991 according to wiki.

There is a story that originally American Football was introduced as the new sport but failed spectacularly
because it was too complicated and costly for uniforms.

 

[NoobPie]

Mainly because of the the partnership between the AFL, the Australian Government, the South African government and Costa Logistics underwrites developmental costs.
Jim Maine wrote "The South African government is currently keen to adopt Australian Football as the 'new sport for the new South Africa'. Because soccer has been the sport of black South Africans and rugby union the sport of white South Africans, the government has been searching for a new game that has widespread appeal and combines the skill of both codes. the AFL's push into this new market has grown quickly with the employment of 19 full-time staff and the education and training of a further 700 volunteers and teachers across four provinces."

This isn't hard to understand because the first non-racial league was only introduced in 1991 according to wiki.

There is a story that originally American Football was introduced as the new sport but failed spectacularly
because it was too complicated and costly for uniforms.

Firstly, I appreciate the contributions of the handful of contributors to this forum, including you two

In terms of South Africa, I think I read somewhere last year someone previously involved (an ambassador even) complaining about the afl dropping the ball and the seedling starting to wither. I cut and paste the Jim Maine quote and it seems to have been written for a "..for dummies" book as long as a decade ago.

I'm not sure whether the federal government still provides its very modest contribution to that footywild program but imho the Australian government should be contributing substantially more than they do for international development....the victorian government alone has spent apparently up to $30m for one of soccer matches over the last 3 years. How far would $30m for game development ?

 

[jatz14]

Firstly, I appreciate the contributions of the handful of contributors to this forum, including you two

In terms of South Africa, I think I read somewhere last year someone previously involved (an ambassador even) complaining about the afl dropping the ball and the seedling starting to wither. I cut and paste the Jim Maine quote and it seems to have been written for a "..for dummies" book as long as a decade ago.

I'm not sure whether the federal government still provides its very modest contribution to that footywild program but imho the Australian government should be contributing substantially more than they do for international development....the victorian government alone has spent apparently up to $30m for one of soccer matches over the last 3 years. How far would $30m for game development ?

This was my concern, you can undo a lot of development very quickly with inattention, or just the wrong circumstances.

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[RedV3x]

In terms of South Africa, I think I read somewhere last year someone previously involved (an ambassador even) complaining about the afl dropping the ball and the seedling starting to wither. I cut and paste the Jim Maine quote and it seems to have been written for a "..for dummies" book as long as a decade ago.

You could be thinking of this.

"Former Victorian sports minister and Melbourne great Brian Dixon has approached the AFL in a bid to intensify the league's international aspirations.
Dixon, the former chairman of AFL South Africa, said he had met with AFL chief Gillon McLachlan, stressing the importance of again focusing on such countries as South Africa. I am disappointed that it seems to have stagnated and I really think it deserves a greater amount of support from the AFL."

and was later quoted
"Dixon said the AFL needed to "develop 12 countries" to the point where each had a league that could ultimately be competitive with the AFL."
That is a lofty goal and IMO would be better replaced by the W.A.F.L.

In 2013 Marc Murphy, the AFL's South African ambassador stated "While the AFL's international focus on South Africa has dimmed slightly, it remains a major point of interest". In the same article AFL international manager Tony Woods said South Africa remained a ''priority target region'' but its importance had to be weighed against other nations. The AFL's focus in recent years had turned more towards Europe, the US, Papua New Guinea and now New Zealand, Ireland also remains on the radar.

 

[NoobPie]

You could be thinking of this.

"Former Victorian sports minister and Melbourne great Brian Dixon has approached the AFL in a bid to intensify the league's international aspirations.
Dixon, the former chairman of AFL South Africa, said he had met with AFL chief Gillon McLachlan, stressing the importance of again focusing on such countries as South Africa. I am disappointed that it seems to have stagnated and I really think it deserves a greater amount of support from the AFL."

and was later quoted
"Dixon said the AFL needed to "develop 12 countries" to the point where each had a league that could ultimately be competitive with the AFL."
That is a lofty goal and IMO would be better replaced by the W.A.F.L.

In 2013 Marc Murphy, the AFL's South African ambassador stated "While the AFL's international focus on South Africa has dimmed slightly, it remains a major point of interest". In the same article AFL international manager Tony Woods said South Africa remained a ''priority target region'' but its importance had to be weighed against other nations. The AFL's focus in recent years had turned more towards Europe, the US, Papua New Guinea and now New Zealand, Ireland also remains on the radar.

Yep, that's definitely the one....what do you mean by "better replaced by the w.a.f.l".

I think it's more than a "lofty" goal but it is also a misguided one. I think an objective of (semi) professional competitions is a sound one but these would and should always be development leagues in relation to the afl. Paradoxically places that are more likely to achieve greater participation levels - like SA, PNG etc may be less likely to achieve credible semi professional leagues (more likely in North America, Europe or Asia

 

[RedV3x]

I think it's more than a "lofty" goal but it is also a misguided one. I think an objective of (semi) professional competitions is a sound one but these would and should always be development leagues in relation to the afl. Paradoxically places that are more likely to achieve greater participation levels - like SA, PNG etc may be less likely to achieve credible semi professional leagues (more likely in North America, Europe or Asia

I agree.

what do you mean by "better replaced by the w.a.f.l".

We agree that an AFL team is just too higher step (for a number of reasons).
Then we should look at the right mix.
PNG Bintangs to play in the QAFL then NEAFL.
NZ Hawks to play in the SFL then NEAFL.
W.r.t. the RSA I would start with a WAFL exhibition game in the RSA. Then a RSA Lions game in WA and take it from there.
There are still a number of representative tours conducted in the RSA.
Let the RSA be the large recruiting ground for the WAFL rather than the small recruiting ground for the AFL.

 

[jatz14]

I agree.



We agree that an AFL team is just too higher step (for a number of reasons).
Then we should look at the right mix.
PNG Bintangs to play in the QAFL then NEAFL.
NZ Hawks to play in the SFL then NEAFL.
W.r.t. the RSA I would start with a WAFL exhibition game in the RSA. Then a RSA Lions game in WA and take it from there.
There are still a number of representative tours conducted in the RSA.
Let the RSA be the large recruiting ground for the WAFL rather than the small recruiting ground for the AFL.

The WAFL is losing players to country leagues that can pay better. Not sure they are in a position to be destination clubs for international players.

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[RedV3x]

Then we should look at the right mix.
PNG Bintangs to play in the QAFL then NEAFL.
NZ Hawks to play in the SFL then NEAFL.
W.r.t. the RSA I would start with a WAFL exhibition game in the RSA. Then a RSA Lions game in WA and take it from there.
There are still a number of representative tours conducted in the RSA.
Let the RSA be the large recruiting ground for the WAFL rather than the small recruiting ground for the AFL.

Currently the there is an AFL pathway program for PNG players into Queensland so AFLQ is receiving some assistance.
The AFL funds the NEAFL which has been a great creation in rounding off the second tier competition in Australia.
The NEAFL is costly to run as well the AFL and the government underwrite the NT Thunder which has been successful on and off the field.
There have been calls for the same approach to be applied to the PNG and the NEAFL.
A NZ side playing regularly in Australia is really one for the wish list but the NZ national AFL is a lot better cost/benefit.
The AFL should fund the WAFL in certain projects w.r.t. the RSA since the WAFL is plenty placed physically
and playing structure to interact with AFL SA as well as being much cheaper than employing AFL staff.

 

[RedV3x]

It's interesting that this promotion shows "Australian Aid"

 

[Garlic muncher]

The AFL are more interested in developing potential draft prospects O/S than developing the code O/S.

Was AFLX developed primarily to be a BBL type game or more likely developing the game on smaller grounds O/S ?

Conundrum - a separate body with genuine funding needs to be established to oversee, regulate etc the development of the game, it is all very ad hoc and has been for 30 or so years.

The game has fits and starts everywhere as mentioned by another poster, this will continue until a independent well funded body is set up.

 

[RedV3x]

The AFL are more interested in developing potential draft prospects O/S than developing the code O/S.

IMO to have a meaningful discussion about Australian Football overseas you first have to recognize that different regions have different approaches.
Significant investment in the southern hemisphere w.r.t. the RSA, PNG and NZ.
AFL Combines in North america and England.
Some add hoc large promotions.
Modest investment in the South Pacific. Some help with organic football in Europe, North America and Asia.

Was AFLX developed primarily to be a BBL type game or more likely developing the game on smaller grounds O/S ?

Since 9-a-side is widely entrenched there is no need for a new game just for small grounds.
IMO AFLX is a promotional game that can also be played on small grounds.

Conundrum - a separate body with genuine funding needs to be established to oversee, regulate etc the development of the game, it is all very ad hoc and has been for 30 or so years.
The game has fits and starts everywhere as mentioned by another poster, this will continue until a independent well funded body is set up.

Yes, IMO there needs to a body, it doesn't need to be independent, but it does need a funding stream.
There is a need for a body to represent the "organic" growth side of football, if only to standardize practices and organize the I.C.
But it also could run surveys, develop aid systems, volunteering, development officers, umpiring and make recommendations etc.

 

[RedV3x]

Interesting possible development with implications for Australian Football.
https://sf.curbed.com/2017/7/17/15984428/sf-cricket-stadium-sports

 

[TWLS]

Interesting possible development with implications for Australian Football.
https://sf.curbed.com/2017/7/17/15984428/sf-cricket-stadium-sports

Apparently Cricket in the USA is likely to be driven by expat Indians or it was. Cannot recall exact details but an U.S. footy club wanted to get access to a cricket type ground run by the Expat Indians who wanted no part of it.
But it was a few years ago and perhaps the situation has now changed, with new facilities being built.

 

[RedV3x]

Apparently Cricket in the USA is likely to be driven by expat Indians or it was.

You're thinking of "Central Broward Stadium is a large county park in Lauderhill, Florida, owned and operated by Broward County. It opened on November 9, 2007, at a construction cost of $70 million."
There is a large cricket following in Florida by expat West Indians.
This new push is by East Indians.

Cannot recall exact details but an U.S. footy club wanted to get access to a cricket type ground run by the Expat Indians who wanted no part of it.

Not correct. They simply wanted too much rent however "The Main Event Field was the home of the Fort Lauderdale Fighting Squids of the United States Australian Football League in 2008.In 2015 the venue hosted the 10th edition of the 49th Parallel Cup, an annual Australian Football match between the USA and Canada."

 

[BigBrainUSA]

Not correct. They simply wanted too much rent however "The Main Event Field was the home of the Fort Lauderdale Fighting Squids of the United States Australian Football League in 2008.In 2015 the venue hosted the 10th edition of the 49th Parallel Cup, an annual Australian Football match between the USA and Canada."

There was a massive tournament held in 2008, and at the time they wouldn't allow the main field to be used. That has since softened as the Squids and the USA National teams have played there since.

 

[TWLS]

There was a massive tournament held in 2008, and at the time they wouldn't allow the main field to be used. That has since softened as the Squids and the USA National teams have played there since.

 

[TWLS]

Thought that was the case then.
Checking out the main organisation driving this proposal he (From India) got the idea from attending the Cricket World Cup comp in Australia in 2015.
Looking into the future IF we can get our game on to the Cricket Grounds in India, which would need Aussie Ground Curators to allay the fears of the Cricket bosses that the grounds can handle both sports as in Australia, would possibly assist elsewhere in the world such as this project.
The Essendon AFL Club have already taken Ground Curators with them on trips to India for this reason.
Of course AFL South Africa have set up Goal Posts on a small number of Cricket Grounds and get access to them in the winter as per Australia.

 

[bweagles]

Here's a good idea as to how things are going overseas:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...-fails-to-mask-afls-deeply-insular-world-view

 

[RedV3x]

Here's a good idea as to how things are going overseas:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...-fails-to-mask-afls-deeply-insular-world-view

No. IT's how the USA sees the football world. has nothing to do with reality what-so-ever.
Major investment in RSA, PNG and NZ and lesser in the Pacific and lesser again Europe.
Let's see after the I.C. shall we.