Analysis Hawthorn rebuild: are they tanking?

[VinnieB]

If we kick straight against Dons and Pies we are 4-4.

We won on the weekend, without Lewis and Chol. With those two back in, we will be ominous in the forward half. We currently do not have a key forward.

Lewis has been very ordinary in 2024.
Chol? Well, he is just ordinary.

 

[Back One Out]

We’ve been through this. Keep up.

Mate, Brandon Ryan is not going to make it in the AFL.

He is a tall, skinny 27 year old KPF who’s time has passed him by.

3 AFL games, 9 goals

He hasn’t played a single game for Brisbane this year. He probably won’t even get a game for the Lions

He showed a couple of nice glimpes last year in his 3 games for the Hawks. Took a few nice marks and received a few Joe-the-Goose handballs.

But he was nothing to write home about. Makes me laugh to see people here on BF trying to troll the Hawks over swapping Ryan for Gunston, plus the f-wit “experts” in the media acting like the Lions snagged a good long-term prospect.

The Lions basically got nothing. The Hawks got an super crafty ex-gun forward who is actually playing a few games, missing his shots at goal, but getting involved and doing a few good things.

But the Hawks are rebuilding and Gunston was mainly brought back into the fold to draw on his nous and experience to help bring along the likes of Calsher Dear and teach him a few tricks.

By all accounts, he is doing a great job. Sammy is very happy to have him back and making a contribution in a teaching role.

 

[AlwaysHawks15]

Moore, N Daicos, De Goey & Pendlebury for starters

JDG is such an A grader he hasn't even won a BnF nor been AA. He has A grader matches absolutely but he's not an A grader based on consistent output across his career. Agree on the others.

 

[AlwaysHawks15]

Lewis has been very ordinary in 2024.
Chol? Well, he is just ordinary.

Because he was carrying an injury. Likewise Bruest. Chol has played as the only key forward for a few weeks how exactly should he be expected to play in a rebuilding side?. He's nowhere near the main issues this year not even close.

 

[VinnieB]

Because he was carrying an injury. Likewise Bruest. Chol has played as the only key forward for a few weeks how exactly should he be expected to play in a rebuilding side?. He's nowhere near the main issues this year not even close.

History suggests players who move to their 3rd club after not being able to play seniors at club 1 and then club 2, are not AFL standard. Chol is rubbish.

The other 2? Yeah of course they must have had injuries because they were so poor……ok.

 

[VinnieB]

JDG is such an A grader he hasn't even won a BnF nor been AA. He has A grader matches absolutely but he's not an A grader based on consistent output across his career. Agree on the others.

Crisp, J Daicos, Elliot.
Sidebottom not an A grader?
Mitchell won a Brownlow so could be considered an A grader.

 

[AlwaysHawks15]

History suggests players who move to their 3rd club after not being able to play seniors at club 1 and then club 2, are not AFL standard. Chol is rubbish.

The other 2? Yeah of course they must have had injuries because they were so poor……ok.

If you were actually following what's been going on both players were carrying injuries in the first few rounds. Breust with his groin and Lewis with his knee. Did a Hammy against Geelong to go with it which was arguably a blessing because it's allowed time to get him right properly. He's been out for 5 weeks because he'd was carrying an injury that needed to heal properly. Not going to comment on your comments on Chol because it correlates with my first sentence.

 

[peetoo]

Mate, Brandon Ryan is not going to make it in the AFL.

He is a tall, skinny 27 year old KPF who’s time has passed him by.

3 AFL games, 9 goals

He hasn’t played a single game for Brisbane this year. He probably won’t even get a game for the Lions

He showed a couple of nice glimpes last year in his 3 games for the Hawks. Took a few nice marks and received a few Joe-the-Goose handballs.

But he was nothing to write home about. Makes me laugh to see people here on BF trying to troll the Hawks over swapping Ryan for Gunston, plus the f-wit “experts” in the media acting like the Lions snagged a good long-term prospect.

The Lions basically got nothing. The Hawks got an super crafty ex-gun forward who is actually playing a few games, missing his shots at goal, but getting involved and doing a few good things.

But the Hawks are rebuilding and Gunston was mainly brought back into the fold to draw on his nous and experience to help bring along the likes of Calsher Dear and teach him a few tricks.

By all accounts, he is doing a great job. Sammy is very happy to have him back and making a contribution in a teaching role.

Especially as money for coaching is tight

 

[smish]

We’ve been through this. Keep up.

Most people don’t follow this thread religiously, Vinnie.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

It was the other way around against Collingwood. You kicked 11 6 against us. We kicked no goals 5 in the last quarter to give you a chance in a game we should have closed out early in third-quarter.

Hawthorn dominated the last quarter and couldn’t finish. It was a winnable game. Albeit should’ve won Round 1. It really could have been a 4-4 season. It’s not as doom and gloom as suggested.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

History suggests players who move to their 3rd club after not being able to play seniors at club 1 and then club 2, are not AFL standard. Chol is rubbish.

The other 2? Yeah of course they must have had injuries because they were so poor……ok.

Vinnie have you tried researching before? Heard it’s handy to make better opinions.

Breust carried a groin injury through the first lot of games he played, also did last year but got worse this year.

Lewis has been having trouble with his knee for a while, played injured and then got even more injured with a minor hamstring strain.

 

[theiaofseed]

History suggests players who move to their 3rd club after not being able to play seniors at club 1 and then club 2, are not AFL standard. Chol is rubbish.

The other 2? Yeah of course they must have had injuries because they were so poor……ok.

History might suggest that but that's not exactly Chols case is it?

Stuck behind two of the best KPF of the last decade and moves clubs.
Kicks 44 Goals for his new club in his first year.
Struggles in his second year and request a trade to avoid his former coach.
Would be the best KPF at Collingwood.

 

[VinnieB]

History might suggest that but that's not exactly Chols case is it?

Stuck behind two of the best KPF of the last decade and moves clubs.
Kicks 44 Goals for his new club in his first year.
Struggles in his second year and request a trade to avoid his former coach.
Would be the best KPF at Collingwood.

He wasn’t good enough regardless of how you want to spin it.

He has an outlier year, out of what, 9?
GC preferred Casboult over him! Now that’s telling you something.

His 1st coach who he spent 6 seasons under I’m sure knows him welll. So it’s hardly a surprise he was looking for a new club once Hardwick got the gig at GC.

The guy is VFL standard at best. The simple eye test indicates that. Nothing has changed that watching him this season. And I’d hate to break it to you but he isn’t the only key forward who has played in a team without another key forward.

And no, he isn’t anywhere near as good as Mihocek, who incidentally has been doing it for years without another key forward, nor is he anywhere near as good as McStay who played for years in a team with Daniher and Hipwood. The Hawks could only dream of having either workhorses who constantly compete to replace Chol.

You’re a funny guy.

 

[VinnieB]

Most people don’t follow this thread religiously, Vinnie.

No, but if you are going to make a comment on a post, it’s not difficult to folllow the previous 1 or 2 posts prior. Or is it?

 

[VinnieB]

Vinnie have you tried researching before? Heard it’s handy to make better opinions.

Breust carried a groin injury through the first lot of games he played, also did last year but got worse this year.

Lewis has been having trouble with his knee for a while, played injured and then got even more injured with a minor hamstring strain.

Sorry Dom, but it’s not easy taking any of your posts seriously. From Ward being better than Nick Daicos to last season saying Fergus Greene was great and tracking like Gunston.

 

[Blackhawk42]

If McDonald kicks that goal it would have put you a point up with enough time to go. I don't know if you've noticed, but we go alright in that situation. But count it as a win if you like.

I was there live. I genuinely cannot remember a Collingwood inside 50 for the final 15 minutes of the game. Pies looked absolutely cooked. I'm certain if Croc had kicked that goal that we would have won.
Was partly why the arrogance of Magpies fans leaving the stadium surprised me a bit. Was expecting more of a sigh of a relief than anything.

Alas, it was the scare Collingwood needed to have, because they've been on a roll ever since. Looking forward to the return game later this year.

 

[sr36]

I was there live. I genuinely cannot remember a Collingwood inside 50 for the final 15 minutes of the game. Pies looked absolutely cooked. I'm certain if Croc had kicked that goal that we would have won.
Was partly why the arrogance of Magpies fans leaving the stadium surprised me a bit. Was expecting more of a sigh of a relief than anything.

Alas, it was the scare Collingwood needed to have, because they've been on a roll ever since. Looking forward to the return game later this year.

I was there too. I saw it differently. I didn't see us as cooked. I saw us as having gone into safe defensive mode from too far out and not playing it well enough to handle the attacking swarm you got going.

The third quarter was even worse. Butchered entries galore from us and then when you broke the lines we had two back for Hardwick, but they paid him no respect. They were standing next to each other 15 metres in front of him and had no chance of stopping a diagonal lead.

The Pies around me were very much Phew rather than arrogant. Negative Pies fans thought our season was done because we weren't playing well enough and were playing really dumb complacent arrogant footy.

 

[Blackhawk42]

I was there too. I saw it differently. I didn't see us as cooked. I saw us as having gone into safe defensive mode from too far out and not playing it well enough to handle the attacking swarm you got going.

The third quarter was even worse. Butchered entries galore from us and then when you broke the lines we had two back for Hardwick, but they paid him no respect. They were standing next to each other 15 metres in front of him and had no chance of stopping a diagonal lead.

The Pies around me were very much Phew rather than arrogant. Negative Pies fans thought our season was done because we weren't playing well enough and were playing really dumb complacent arrogant footy.

Safe might be another way of explaining it. There was just no nervousness when the ball would start rebounding out of the Hawks attacking 50 in that final quarter. It just felt inevitable that Scrimshaw and Amon would mop it up and send it straight back in.

I left feeling really satisfied with the comeback and how close we'd come to pinching it.
The amount of people chanting 'Collingwood' and singing the song on the way out just felt a little tone deaf. I've been at 'lucky escape' Hawthorn games in the past and have just quietly left the stadium thankful we got the 4 points.

Could also be the fact that Hawthorn have been a bit of a bogey side for the Pies in recent times. Perhaps it meant more to Collingwood fans, no matter how the 4 points came to be.

 

[sr36]

Safe might be another way of explaining it. There was just no nervousness when the ball would start rebounding out of the Hawks attacking 50 in that final quarter. It just felt inevitable that Scrimshaw and Amon would mop it up and send it straight back in.

I left feeling really satisfied with the comeback and how close we'd come to pinching it.
The amount of people chanting 'Collingwood' and singing the song on the way out just felt a little tone deaf. I've been at 'lucky escape' Hawthorn games in the past and have just quietly left the stadium thankful we got the 4 points.

Could also be the fact that Hawthorn have been a bit of a bogey side for the Pies in recent times. Perhaps it meant more to Collingwood fans, no matter how the 4 points came to be.

The comp is so even that every win is a good win at the end of the day and should be celebrated - a bit off and every team has the ability to hurt you.

 

[Vindicater]

History might suggest that but that's not exactly Chols case is it?

Stuck behind two of the best KPF of the last decade and moves clubs.
Kicks 44 Goals for his new club in his first year.
Struggles in his second year and request a trade to avoid his former coach.
Would be the best KPF at Collingwood.

 

[sr36]

History might suggest that but that's not exactly Chols case is it?

Stuck behind two of the best KPF of the last decade and moves clubs.
Kicks 44 Goals for his new club in his first year.
Struggles in his second year and request a trade to avoid his former coach.
Would be the best KPF at Collingwood.

He's lazy. He'd certainly cause a fair bit of bickering on the Collingwood board. Cox or Chol? We'd be endlessly bickering about which unreliable ruck/forward who has the occasional good game to drop and which one to play. Cox for me despite all the problems as he can actually ruck and has a history of standing up with crucial big marks in big games - I don't think Chol has played in a big game yet, so perhaps he'd do likewise? I wonder what the largest crowd he's played in front of is?

 

[Judd2Sewell]

Hawthorn dominated the last quarter and couldn’t finish. It was a winnable game. Albeit should’ve won Round 1. It really could have been a 4-4 season. It’s not as doom and gloom as suggested.

If Collingwood kick straighter, or at the same conversion rate that we did, they win by 20 points. They had more shots on goal, and that is generally the best indicator as to who deserved to win the game. History has shown this.

I agree regarding Essendon, we shot ourselves in the foot and if we had capitalised we would have won. We can't have it both ways though.

Just lol at whoever edited my post.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

He's lazy. He'd certainly cause a fair bit of bickering on the Collingwood board. Cox or Chol? We'd be endlessly bickering about which unreliable ruck/forward who has the occasional good game to drop and which one to play. Cox for me despite all the problems as he can actually ruck and has a history of standing up with crucial big marks in big games - I don't think Chol has played in a big game yet, so perhaps he'd do likewise? I wonder what the largest crowd he's played in front of is?

The calls of “he’s lazy” are at best lazy themselves. He is rated “elite” for tackles.

Seems a bit odd you’d compare him to Cox and not Mihocek. Maybe it’s because you know Mihocek is just a good honest undersized player.

Go have a look at both players comparable stats, marks, scoring, tackles inside 50, etc… if Chol is lazy or disappointing then your two most definitely are.

 

[SSSSSS]

I don't think Dimma and Chol's relationship is a one way street. It's mutual.

A lot of people conveniently forget that Dimma hung Chol out to dry when he was getting sexually assaulted.

Chol wanted to leave as much as Dimma wanted him out.

 

[sr36]

The calls of “he’s lazy” are at best lazy themselves. He is rated “elite” for tackles.

Seems a bit odd you’d compare him to Cox and not Mihocek. Maybe it’s because you know Mihocek is just a good honest undersized player.

Go have a look at both players comparable stats, marks, scoring, tackles inside 50, etc… if Chol is lazy or disappointing then your two most definitely are.

You're trying to suggest that Chol is as good a player as Mihocek. That's not lazy, that's really idiotic.