Play Nice Hawthorn culture and Fagan

[dlanod]

This is going to be a very touchy subject.

There will be a very broad range of opinions about the correct way to handle this.

I'll remind everyone to post respectfully at this time - sniping at each other is not going to help.

Any continued pointless back and forth will get a day or more to cool off. If you want to avoid this fate, let it go.

 

[mighty_lions]

The legal status of abortion is not relevant and isn’t in issue.

I agree, posters have made an issue out of it however

 

[buttermuffs]

I would like to hear Fagan, Clarkson and Burt's version of events re the pregnancy issue.... some of the rhetoric/innuendo going around about that event is horrific eg. told his partner needed to get an abortion.. demanded the abortion etc.

IMO if abortion was mentioned it would have been along with a set of options if a young player came to a welfare officer at a club distressed with the situation and worried about his future... abortion after all is not an illegal procedure, some of the talk on other boards discussing the issue seem to view it as abetting a murder.

We probably aren’t going to hear it. They have been released from confidentiality which they claim is the reason why they haven’t been sharing their side of events but there’s nothing right now. I could of course be proven wrong but it’s also just not a wise move for them. I would believe that none of their lawyers would approve of them doing it even now that they are allowed.

Im not having a big go at them, it’s a smart move just to be quiet about the actual events. Much like the accusers statement about not wanting money though, I think it’s a bit of a disingenuous claim to say that you’ve been barred from telling your side when you’ve had the opportunity before the investigation and now afterwards. It’s just simply not in their interests I think.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[M Malice]

The legal status of abortion is not relevant and isn’t in issue.

Not on our board but it gets a hell of a run on others mostly to point out how heinous Fagan and co are/were... see mighty_lions post #3126

 

[martinson]

Not enough information to draw on any conclusion whatsoever.

Was abortion mentioned and by whom ? If so then in what context. It may well have been canvassed amongst a range of options after counselling was sought. If it was urged as the appropriate thing to do then that casts a totally different light on the allegation.

From my reading of anything Fagan has said he would totally deny the latter , and in all likelihood the former.

I just think that with what's been alleged and the response of the Hawthorn officials it's going to take some time to even get everyone to the table even via HRC let alone get any resolution. Line seems to have been drawn in the sand by both parties.

 

[Gibbo_88]

I don't know how relevant this is given the completely different circumstances and it is not specific to Indigenous Australians either but I have experience working in an intensive care unit and have been part of a lot of family meetings. Most of these family meetings are an update about how things are going and sometimes end of life decisions are brought up.

These meetings can be really challenging and it's not uncommon to have significant family conflict that you have to navigate as well. Most of the time I leave the meeting thinking it's great that everyone is on the same page and the language used was really helpful in making it clear what the options were and consequences of each choice. However...it's also not uncommon to hear back from some families in the hours after or the next day that the family thought they were being pressured into palliating or the hospital is refusing treatment. It just really highlights that you can set up a situation where the information is presented in a format that everyone should understand but due to other factors or the trauma of the situation...people can get completely different meaning from what was said.

 

[martinson]

I don't know how relevant this is given the completely different circumstances and it is not specific to Indigenous Australians either but I have experience working in an intensive care unit and have been part of a lot of family meetings. Most of these family meetings are an update about how things are going and sometimes end of life decisions are brought up.

These meetings can be really challenging and it's not uncommon to have significant family conflict that you have to navigate as well. Most of the time I leave the meeting thinking it's great that everyone is on the same page and the language used was really helpful in making it clear what the options were and consequences of each choice. However...it's also not uncommon to hear back from some families in the hours after or the next day that the family thought they were being pressured into palliating or the hospital is refusing treatment. It just really highlights that you can set up a situation where the information is presented in a format that everyone should understand but due to other factors or the trauma of the situation...people can get completely different meaning from what was said.

My wife's worked in palliative care for the last 30 years and this is regular feedback. Family members at the same meeting can come away with totally opposing views on what was presented/how it was presented/ what pressure was applied. When the reality is there is zero pressure intended and the options are clearly outlined.

 

[martinson]

My wife's worked in palliative care for the last 30 years and this is regular feedback. Family members at the same meeting can come away with totally opposing views on what was presented/how it was presented/ what pressure was applied. When the reality is there is zero pressure intended and the options are clearly outlined.

People under significant stress just want it to go away and be told what they should do.

Which any professional in these specialities is trained not to do unless the situation is extreme. Outlining likely outcomes is not pressure but sometimes it gets interpreted that way.

 

[M Malice]

I don't know how relevant this is given the completely different circumstances and it is not specific to Indigenous Australians either but I have experience working in an intensive care unit and have been part of a lot of family meetings. Most of these family meetings are an update about how things are going and sometimes end of life decisions are brought up.

These meetings can be really challenging and it's not uncommon to have significant family conflict that you have to navigate as well. Most of the time I leave the meeting thinking it's great that everyone is on the same page and the language used was really helpful in making it clear what the options were and consequences of each choice. However...it's also not uncommon to hear back from some families in the hours after or the next day that the family thought they were being pressured into palliating or the hospital is refusing treatment. It just really highlights that you can set up a situation where the information is presented in a format that everyone should understand but due to other factors or the trauma of the situation...people can get completely different meaning from what was said.

Probably the most concise enlightening post I have seen on this issue anywhere... thanks. IMO the bolded is at least possible to be the explanation for how this whole sad saga started.

 

[martinson]

Probably the most concise enlightening post I have seen on this issue anywhere... thanks. IMO the bolded is at least possible to be the explanation for how this whole sad saga started.

When I see players on the footy field they're men.

When I see or meet any of them in person I'm privately gobsmacked at how young they are. Just in their demeanour and attitude.

We tend to forget this when contentious issues crop up in sports. A lot of them are just kids dealing in things they have no experience of.

They get judged too harshly a lot of the time. As do those entrusted with their care because often it's not easy.

 

[M Malice]

When I see players on the footy field they're men.

When I see or meet any of them in person I'm privately gobsmacked at how young they are. Just in their demeanour and attitude.

We tend to forget this when contentious issues crop up in sports. A lot of them are just kids dealing in things they have no experience of.

They get judged too harshly a lot of the time. As do those entrusted with their care because often it's not easy.

Yes you only have to watch KickOns to realise that, even Clugga(25 years old) and Cam(23) come across as naively innocent... which I love BTW.

I don't think I grew out of that innocence until I got married at 25 years of age.

 

[martinson]

Yes you only have to watch KickOns to realise that, even Clugga(25 years old) and Cam(23) come across as naively innocent... which I love BTW.

I don't think I grew out of that innocence until I got married at 25 years of age.

I think I matured somewhat once I had kids and responsibility. Early thirties.

What comes next is anxiety and depression. That matures you a bit.

I never understood a lot of things about myself and my family until sadly some were gone.

Still learning ,and often look back at how immature and naive I still was before 50, around 20 years ago.

Watching my own kids grow up I can see the missteps and issues they're facing but useless telling them. You need to experience ups and downs to understand them. And yourself.

Sorry for the psychoanalysis but my message is to anybody listening don't be too hard on yourself when you stuff up or have anxiety issues. You don't get growth without pain.

 

[MacMum]

My wife's worked in palliative care for the last 30 years and this is regular feedback. Family members at the same meeting can come away with totally opposing views on what was presented/how it was presented/ what pressure was applied. When the reality is there is zero pressure intended and the options are clearly outlined.

....and this is why I feel there has been a massive misunderstanding of what happened in that meeting.

Also, I just cannot for the life of me see Fages being so horrible as to tell them they must abort their baby and the other stuff mentioned.

As with the example in above post, put the Hawthorn club in place of the hospital staff for mediation and I can see the same situation happening in this current scenario.

Good people trying to help others solve a problem at their workplace...

I have read somewhere that there was an issue with the baby/pregnancy. I'm also wondering if someone in that meeting despairing asked one of the coaches what he would do in such a position........and the coach replied that he would abort.

I don't know of course but I have always been a person that if someone asks me a question, they will get my honest opinion. If they don't like my answer, don't ask me in the first place if not prepared to here my thoughts on the subject.

Maybe one of the coaches was the same.

...as I said, I don't know. Like everyone else, just trying to fathom how all this happened and got to where it is now.

 

[Gadzorks]

I don't know how relevant this is given the completely different circumstances and it is not specific to Indigenous Australians either but I have experience working in an intensive care unit and have been part of a lot of family meetings. Most of these family meetings are an update about how things are going and sometimes end of life decisions are brought up.

These meetings can be really challenging and it's not uncommon to have significant family conflict that you have to navigate as well. Most of the time I leave the meeting thinking it's great that everyone is on the same page and the language used was really helpful in making it clear what the options were and consequences of each choice. However...it's also not uncommon to hear back from some families in the hours after or the next day that the family thought they were being pressured into palliating or the hospital is refusing treatment. It just really highlights that you can set up a situation where the information is presented in a format that everyone should understand but due to other factors or the trauma of the situation...people can get completely different meaning from what was said.

Two of my daughters are icu nurses with exactly the same experiences.

This sounds weird but we have talked about language being great, but it's not the same thing as communication.

To communicate you need many many language interactions where people can go away, process the discussions then return to the conversation with their new paradigm. And start all over again. And again.

To me that parallels the truth telling of the aboriginal culture. It's so very different to our combative process of court mediation and legal language.

Maybe indigenous culture has a lot to teach us about communication.

 

[Walshawk]

Some excellent discussion on this board. No idea how this will all play out, but Clarko is/was an absolute hard arse (apparent from Sam Mitchell's book). A bully? Maybe. That 'toughness' would suit some players, but if Sam had a problems with the was he was treated (he did), then it is not hard to imagine how some other, less confident, more naive boys would see Clarko's words and behaviour very differently. I doubt there was ever any racist undertones, simply a lack of awareness of how different people would hear his words very differently.

It's an absolute mess and not really anybody's fault (Clarko aside), but no doubt that just about everyone involved would do things differently if they had their time again.

 

[buttermuffs]

I think I matured somewhat once I had kids and responsibility. Early thirties.

What comes next is anxiety and depression. That matures you a bit.

I never understood a lot of things about myself and my family until sadly some were gone.

Still learning ,and often look back at how immature and naive I still was before 50, around 20 years ago.

Watching my own kids grow up I can see the missteps and issues they're facing but useless telling them. You need to experience ups and downs to understand them. And yourself.

Sorry for the psychoanalysis but my message is to anybody listening don't be too hard on yourself when you stuff up or have anxiety issues. You don't get growth without pain.

This isn’t a fervent disagreement, more just sharing what I have put together in my admittedly young life.

I’m only 22 and have been battling anxiety and depression for the last couple years. I have friend who have dealt with it since they were 15 and worse. I can’t say it exactly matures a person, in fact I’m not a fan of that word mature since I’ve rarely seen it used to benefit any situation.

I had a friend with depression at 17 who’d been groomed by their teacher twice their age, and I’m ashamed I spent even six months going along with it. My friend would always argue that they were fine, that they were mature for their age so their teacher wasn’t actually predatory. It’s safe to say that wasn’t true. I lost touch with them after a falling out, which involved their new partner/former teacher convincing them to spend less time with their own friends.

There’s also more examples of meeting people through events years, where they may have shared a lot of similarities, they were at the complete opposite ends in terms of their attitude towards others and wanting to get better. It lead to some incredibly frustrating experiences, especially when the appropriate healthcare was gate-kept behind the private system.

I’m not exactly sure what point I’m trying to make. Possibly that depression, anxiety, and other disorders of the type don’t exactly give you a greater capacity to be mature, I think it’s more the lived experiences that caused them to pop up in the first place. I think I just really don’t like the word, it feels like this catch all word that provides little value.

Sorry, this wasn’t even disagreeing with you about anything. I enjoyed reading your post.

 

[martinson]

This isn’t a fervent disagreement, more just sharing what I have put together in my admittedly young life.

I’m only 22 and have been battling anxiety and depression for the last couple years. I have friend who have dealt with it since they were 15 and worse. I can’t say it exactly matures a person, in fact I’m not a fan of that word mature since I’ve rarely seen it used to benefit any situation.

I had a friend with depression at 17 who’d been groomed by their teacher twice their age, and I’m ashamed I spent even six months going along with it. My friend would always argue that they were fine, that they were mature for their age so their teacher wasn’t actually predatory. It’s safe to say that wasn’t true. I lost touch with them after a falling out, which involved their new partner/former teacher convincing them to spend less time with their own friends.

There’s also more examples of meeting people through events years, where they may have shared a lot of similarities, they were at the complete opposite ends in terms of their attitude towards others and wanting to get better. It lead to some incredibly frustrating experiences, especially when the appropriate healthcare was gate-kept behind the private system.

I’m not exactly sure what point I’m trying to make. Possibly that depression, anxiety, and other disorders of the type don’t exactly give you a greater capacity to be mature, I think it’s more the lived experiences that caused them to pop up in the first place. I think I just really don’t like the word, it feels like this catch all word that provides little value.

Sorry, this wasn’t even disagreeing with you about anything. I enjoyed reading your post.

Don't worry Buttermuffs. Many young men of your age have anxiety/depression issues. In my era it was never talked about. I had it too then but covered it up as you had to to keep going with the crowd ,always pretending to have a goodtime. It was only when it came back a long time later that I realised it had never gone away . Just got triggered by different stressors.

I don't like the word mature either because overall I don't really want to be mature in the traditional sense. Instead of saying it matures you what I really meant was that it helps you, once you're over any deeply anxious phase , to understand yourself a lot better so you live your life as you need to live it for your ultimate contentment. And don't get swayed by false expectations or the expectations of others.

You're ahead of the game if you're able to discuss it and get help. Any good GP will look after you and refer you to someone if they think that's what you need. Sometimes it's just the passage of time that helps along with someone who can develop strategies/treatment for you . This isn't professional advice but just thought it might help.

As might a flag for the Lions. !!

 

[BangyBangy]

I don't know how relevant this is given the completely different circumstances and it is not specific to Indigenous Australians either but I have experience working in an intensive care unit and have been part of a lot of family meetings. Most of these family meetings are an update about how things are going and sometimes end of life decisions are brought up.

These meetings can be really challenging and it's not uncommon to have significant family conflict that you have to navigate as well. Most of the time I leave the meeting thinking it's great that everyone is on the same page and the language used was really helpful in making it clear what the options were and consequences of each choice. However...it's also not uncommon to hear back from some families in the hours after or the next day that the family thought they were being pressured into palliating or the hospital is refusing treatment. It just really highlights that you can set up a situation where the information is presented in a format that everyone should understand but due to other factors or the trauma of the situation...people can get completely different meaning from what was said.

Great post Gibbo_88

Perfect example of how people can be present with the exact same input data & interpret it in totally polar opposite ways.

Even without the thought of any party having a pre-existing motive it's not hard to see how both the accused & alleged victims could experience the exact same sequence of events and interpret them in a completely contradictory manner.

 

[Gadzorks]

AFL news 2023: Alastair Clarkson update, North Melbourne Kangaroos second-guessing appointment, says Kane Cornes

Article saying north better without Clarkson, and rattan's game plan (not heavy zone) is getting more out of the players.

That's going to add to Clarkson's burn out overload.

 

[Ad Astra]

I’ve only read the last page in this thread but I’m delighted to see names I only know from the preview/review stuff discussing a difficult moral topic with compassion, candour and intelligence. And that goes for the oldest contributors and the youngest. Breaking news: Lion fans revealed as as humane, thoughtful and honest. Who knew?

 

[martinson]

I’ve only read the last page in this thread but I’m delighted to see names I only know from the preview/review stuff discussing a difficult moral topic with compassion, candour and intelligence. And that goes for the oldest contributors and the youngest. Breaking news: Lion fans revealed as as humane, thoughtful and honest. Who knew?

The greatest thing for me Ad Astra was growing up as an avid Fitzroy supporter with a sense of uniqueness and community. That's carried on to the Brisbane Lions to a lesser extent , but still I would say still the friendliest and tightest knit club going around.

I'm actually glad I supported a club that won one game in 3 years as a kid and caught the tram or train to watch them every week. You learn a lot more in that situation than you ever do flocking with the multitudes who are 'successful' .

There are far more important things in life than football and every time I go off about something or other that happens in a match I give myself an uppercut for having expectations that I never had when life was simpler.

Let's hope these historical racism issues are sorted soon. It's something that should be resolved if everyone involved just takes a step back and are able to talk to each other about it.

 

[T Rick]

So have the complainants actually lodged their allegations with the HRC or not… things seem unbelievably quiet since they threatened to do so.

 

[Dalions]

So have the complainants actually lodged their allegations with the HRC or not… things seem unbelievably quiet since they threatened to do so.

These things take time.

 

[M Malice]

These things take time.

Up to 2 years was reported at the time.

 

[Dalions]

Up to 2 years was reported at the time.

That’s once it actually gets there.

 

[3KZ is Football]

I love life in South East Qld, would not want to live anywhere else on Earth.

I like Currumbin. Great spot. First went there in the summer of 1974 / 1975. Been back a fair few times and still love it.


Great view of the beach from the Surf Lifesaving Club restaurant Vikings.