Play Nice Caster Semenya - To Rio and Controversy

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I think this is an important issue and needs to be taken seriously, not ignored, not brushed aside, but a decision needs to be made.

Not that long ago, 99.99% of the world accepted that there were males and there were females, and we defined each by their genitals. We didn't worry about how male or female someone was or what advantages they had against their competitors. But the world is more complicated now and we know that gender is not binary. Caster Semenya has done nothing wrong and should not be criticised for being born with testes and a vagina. However, the authorities need to decide what to do with people that are clearly not what most people would consider male or female.

Semenya should not compete against men, that is unfair, and no one should make this argument. It will never happen so save your breath. But I feel she should not be allowed to compete against women without some intervention. That said, I freely admit that I may be wrong and my attitude may be different in future.

I don't see an Intersexed gender category being introduced into sport, I may be proven wrong. Thus, Semenya must compete against women. Is her advantage over women any different to any other advantage individuals have had over others in the past? I tend to think it is. I've said before that I would first rule that she must have her testes removed. Some say that is a breach of her human rights. I'd question what possible reason she has to keep them. I understand Semenya is not transgender, but from what I have seen of TG individuals, many want to represent their chosen gender externally and internally.
 
i just don't understand why they just didn't limit the amount of testostrone she is allowed to have in her body. Pretty simple solution that would have stopped this stuff happening. the PC crowd obviously won again.
 
Belnakor said:
i just don't understand why they just didn't limit the amount of testostrone she is allowed to have in her body. Pretty simple solution that would have stopped this stuff happening. the PC crowd obviously won again.
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They did do that, then she took it to the CAS and she had it overturned.
 
SJ said:
They did do that, then she took it to the CAS and she had it overturned.
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And there's the problem. Thankfully the IAAF is not backing down and are confident of having the decision reversed by CAS.

It would be good to know the testosterone levels of all athletes. How close do women come to 10 nmol/L, how much above are men?
 
red+black said:
And there's the problem. Thankfully the IAAF is not backing down and are confident of having the decision reversed by CAS.

It would be good to know the testosterone levels of all athletes. How close do women come to 10 nmol/L, how much above are men?
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Women don't come anywhere near it:

http://sportsscientists.com/2016/05/hyperandrogenism-women-vs-women-vs-men-sport-qa-joanna-harper/
t was as a result of Semenya, and the absolutely disastrous handling of that situation, that the policy changed, and until last year, the policy in place said that women could compete only if their testosterone levels were below an upper limit. That upper limit, 10 nmol/L, was set up based on a study done on all the women competing in the World Championships in 2011 and 2013. The researchers took the average testosterone levels of women with a condition called Polycystic Ovary Syndrome, which was already elevated at 4.5 nmol/L, and then added 5 SD to it.

The addition of 3 SD (which created a level of 7.5 nmol/L) would have meant that 16 in 1000 athletes would exceed the cutoff. That’s why the extra 2 SD were added, to make sure that the upper limit would apply only to those with hyperandrogenism (or those who are doping).

99% of female athletes, by the way, had testosterone levels below 3.08 nmol/L. So the upper limit of 10 nmol/L was three fold higher than a level that applies to 99 in 100 women participants.
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B
Barry_Badrinath said:
No's no concrete evidence on them, but there's technically no concrete evidence of Semenya either. I think the combination of them:

a) looking like men
b) running shitful times when the restrictions on hormone levels for transgenders/intersex were brought in
c) took time off when the restrictions were brought in
d) suddenly got back to their best when the restrictions on transgender athletes were removed

Obviously these gender tests are kept very private but it's pretty well known that they are.



Yes they would beat the majority of people, but there are still hundreds worldwide that could beat them. Look at Jack Hale. He smashed the female world record in the 100m as a 16 year old. I was watching the javelin the other day and some of the throws were mid-50s. My dad used to throw that as a 14 year old. The difference is massive at the top level.
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Btw intersex and transgender are two completely different conditions.
 
red+black said:
And there's the problem. Thankfully the IAAF is not backing down and are confident of having the decision reversed by CAS.

It would be good to know the testosterone levels of all athletes. How close do women come to 10 nmol/L, how much above are men?
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average man is 20, olympics level athlete you would need to be 30+. Some UFC guys have been done for 50+ (lol). Intersex athletes like Caster have tested between 11 and 29, the average for a woman is 0.7(!). Clearly not fair.

seems pretty simple though just like the old 50% rule in cycling during the EPO era. Just put in a limit so you know at the very least people aren't taking the piss.
 
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when i turned 13 i had to make a choice. our local hockey comp had an u/13 division and an A grade. that was it. almost every kid quit. now it would be much fairer (and safer) having a 13 year old play against 12 year olds than adults. but a 13 year old would have an unfair advantage. not my fault, simply not enough categories to cater for everyone. so i played A grade. better to disadvantage one kid than all the rest.
 

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Put this in the Commonwealth Games thread but there had been an appeal to CAS by Indian athlete Dutee Chand back in 2015, CAS and IAAF agreed to suspend the IAAF rules for 2 years, which was supposed to run out mid 2017. It got all a bit too hard and it was delayed by another 6 months and CAS made the following interim ruling on 19 January this year.

Going by the last sentence I presume the IAAF new rules are the proposed draft regulations it has submitted to CAS and the CAS will be dismissed. If they are different to the proposed ones then I assume the CAS appeal is still open.

http://www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_upload/Media_Release_3759_Jan_2018.pdf
MEDIA RELEASE
ATHLETICS – DUTEE CHAND CASE
THE APPLICATION OF THE IAAF HYPERANDROGENISM REGULATIONS REMAIN SUSPENDED

Lausanne, 19 January 2018 – By decision of 24 July 2015, the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) released in an “Interim Award” a decision suspending the IAAF's Hyperandrogenism Regulations, which are currently being challenged by the Indian athlete Ms. Dutee Chand, and invited the IAAF to submit further written evidence and expert reports addressing the concerns expressed by the CAS Panel in charge of this procedure regarding those regulations (in particular, as to the actual degree of athletic performance advantage sustained by hyperandrogenic female athletes as compared to nonhyperandrogenic female athletes by reason of their high levels of testosterone) within two years of the date of the Interim Award, failing which the IAAF Hyperandrogenism Regulations would be declared invalid.

On 29 September 2017, after being granted an extension to the deadline set out in the Interim Award, the IAAF filed material with the CAS in response to the Interim Award, including expert reports and legal submissions. That material includes draft revised regulations that would only apply to female track events over distances of between 400 metres and one mile.

In response, on 6 October 2017, Ms Chand submitted, among other things (1) that the IAAF had not complied with the Interim Award as it had filed evidence supporting proposed revised regulations, not the current Hyperandrogenism Regulations and, therefore, the Hyperandrogenism Regulations should be declared invalid; and (2) that she is not directly affected by the proposed revised regulations as she does not compete now or intend to compete in the future in track races between 400 metres and one mile.

On 3 November 2017, the CAS Panel advised that it has reflected upon the evidence advanced by the IAAF, and determined that the IAAF’s further submission dated 29 September 2017 represented sufficient compliance with the Panel’s directive and sought to support the Hyperandrogenism Regulations to the extent set out in the evidence it had filed. However, the Panel has made no ruling at this stage on the sufficiency of that evidence.

The CAS has now issued an order by consent of the parties by which this proceeding is suspended for a period of six months, during which the IAAF Hyperandrogenism Regulations remain suspended. During this period, the IAAF is to advise the CAS as to how it intends to implement its regulations moving forward. If the IAAF decides not to withdraw its current Hyperandrogenism Regulations, then these proceedings will resume before the same Panel of arbitrators.

If the IAAF withdraws the Hyperandrogenism Regulations and/or replaces them with the proposed draft regulations it has submitted, then these proceedings will be terminated.
http://www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_upload/Media_Release_3759_Jan_2018.pdf
 
Ross Tucker's previous articles on this can be found at

http://sportsscientists.com/thread/caster-semenya

and his take on the ruling and what it means in the future. its an excellent piece especially the last 3 or 4 minutes where he talks about testosterone being the best way to protect the boundaries between men and women's sport, just like weight classes in boxing eg 96kg boxer doesnt fight a 62kg boxer to protect athletes, the integrity, the safety, the fairness of the competition, and therefore have a category we must defend it. Ross has been arguing for 9 years Testosterone should be the measure or producing the line of divison otherwise you just have just 1 category and men and women race against each other. He says the bar CAS set is too high, and that scientific tests probably wont produce the level of support, level of evidence, CAS is demanding.


Oh Indian athlete Dutee Chand who took this to CAS is an 100m and 200m runner so this IAAF ruling doesnt apply to her, she is free to compete and as Ross says he can't see her continuing to appeal this. Its Semenya and others that will have to do that.

 
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red+black said:
Although boxing also has gender categories. Imagine if Semenya was a boxer or mixed martial artist and was destroying women in the first round.
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Only if Caster was a good boxer or has a martial arts background wanna bet she cooks a fried chicken better then the KFC’ ?
 
red+black said:
Although boxing also has gender categories. Imagine if Semenya was a boxer or mixed martial artist and was destroying women in the first round.
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I doubt it. Boxing has weight categories and she would be affected. At her current weight, she'd be in the Middleweight and that's dominated by a German lady who looks a similar body shape. Semenya obviously would need to work on different muscles and it'd probably put her into a higher weight category and she'd look rather normal compared to her opponents.
 
Remind me of a joke.

Paddy gets arrested for beating his wife

The judge asks "why do you keep beating her"

Paddy replies "I think it's my weight advantage, longer reach and superior footwork. :)
 
red+black said:
Has her chromosomal make-up been made public?
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“Dutee and Caster should never have been compared in the same space”, she argues. Caster and Dutee have different chromosome makeups. Caster is XX, Dutee is XY. In Dutee’s case, it doesn’t matter what her levels are, she will never get faster, because her body can’t absorb this extra testosterone due to Androgen insensitivity Syndrome.”

Caster has adrenal hyperplasia [a condition where the adrenal gland is larger than usual]”, continues Worley. “She is XX chromosome and she does produce a higher level of testosterone. Caster does have a competitive advantage, due to the testosterone being produced by her adrenal glands. However, her advantage is no different to natural talents enjoyed by athletes such as Serena Williams, Lindsey Vonn or Marianne Vos in their sports. She is naturally advantaged, not synthetically.

http://www.sportsintegrityinitiative.com/sports-longest-injustice-scheduled-demolition/

https://t.co/JWlBLk5A43?amp=1
 
red+black said:
http://www.news.com.au/sport/more-s...n/news-story/0e112ff8ca5d62e0d2167ac07e8c28e2

I think Semenya has testes. I've always said that a trans woman should have to have their testes surgically removed if they want to compete as a woman.

Some discussion in the twitter threads below:


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Dr Ross Tucker is an amazing resource of knowledge I was up most of last night discussing this with him.

This interview with Dr Tucker provides an amazing analysis of the history of this subject.

https://t.co/FVinN2vCX7?amp=1

3C05B8BE-13F7-429E-9B5D-D6B5E5CEFCC3.jpeg
 
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