Covid-19 Antivaxxers, extremism and the Coalition

[Frank Bunn]

Seriously, what was the effect of a Curfew during the lockdown. Wahh wahhh wahh.
Where were you going to go during the Curfew?

What a weird thing to say. Do you want a list of what people might normally do if they are not subject to a curfew?

It was a plan, not part of the constitution, you'd be frootloops if you threw royal commission money at it.

Albo has promised a Royal Commision style inquiry. He's avoiding announcing when it will happen or more importantly, funding it.

 

[Malifice]

That's supposition.

You have another explanation as to why Australias death toll and CFR are a fraction of those of the USA, Canada and the UK (who used less stringent lockdowns and vaccination mandates) and is on par with New Zealands (who had similar mandates to us)?

If so, I'd love to hear it.

If it wasnt down to strict vaccination and isolation orders in place, what was it down to?

COVID is stronger in the Northern Hemisphere or something?

While you're at it, can you also explain the disparity in Sweden vs the rest of Scandinavia?

 

[MrKK]

You have another explanation as to why Australias death toll and CFR are a fraction of those of the USA, Canada and the UK (who used less stringent lockdowns and vaccination mandates) and is on par with New Zealands (who had similar mandates to us)?

If so, I'd love to hear it.

If it wasnt down to strict vaccination and isolation orders in place, what was it down to?

COVID is stronger in the Northern Hemisphere or something?

While you're at it, can you also explain the disparity in Sweden vs the rest of Scandinavia?

If, in 2023, you're going to continue using Civid deaths rather than excess deaths or total deaths to compare pandemic outcomes between countries then you're not arguing in good faith and there is no point continuing here.

As posted previously, Sweden has come out better than everyone on those measures, including their Scandinavian neighbours.

 

[Malifice]

If, in 2023, you're going to continue using Civid deaths rather than excess deaths or total deaths to compare pandemic outcomes between countries then you're not arguing in good faith and there is no point continuing here.

As posted previously, Sweden has come out better than everyone on those measures, including their Scandinavian neighbours.

No, it has not. That was rebutted several pages ago repeatedly.

Excess mortality - statistics - Statistics Explained

Sweden is doing marginally better than Iceland and Denmark, but on par with Finland and Norway.



For OECD countries, according to the OECD Sweden did worse than Finland, Denmark, Iceland and Norway (and Australia and New Zealand) in excess deaths.

Here again we see it on par with its Nordic neighbors (with Australia again also doing better):



Even assuming they're on par, tell me what the above excess death figures for Sweden are supposed to be telling me exactly?

 

[MrKK]

No, it has not. That was rebutted several pages ago repeatedly.

Excess mortality - statistics - Statistics Explained

Sweden is doing marginally better than Iceland and Denmark, but on par with Finland and Norway.

View attachment 1692662

For OECD countries, according to the OECD Sweden did worse than Finland, Denmark, Iceland and Norway (and Australia and New Zealand) in excess deaths.

Here again we see it on par with its Nordic neighbors (with Australia again also doing better):

View attachment 1692663

Even assuming they're on par, tell me what the above excess death figures for Sweden are supposed to be telling me exactly?

They're telling me that Sweden is consistently at or near the bottom, and better than the countries that supposedly did all of the right things during their pandemic response and which Sweden didn't do.

Also Australia is catching up fast with our excess death rate of >10% since start of 2022 showing no sign of slowing.

 

[Roby]

They're telling me that Sweden is consistently at or near the bottom, and better than the countries that supposedly did all of the right things during their pandemic response and which Sweden didn't do.

Also Australia is catching up fast with our excess death rate of >10% since start of 2022 showing no sign of slowing.

Let's look at the number of deaths as a proportion of the total population for each country to get an idea of the death rate. This can give us a more accurate picture since countries have different population sizes.

For Sweden:

Total COVID-19 deaths: 23,777
Total population: 10,279,755
Death rate: 23,777 / 10,279,755 = 0.00231 or 0.231%

For Australia:

Total COVID-19 deaths: 19,574
Total population: 26,349,090
Death rate: 19,574 / 26,349,090 = 0.00074 or 0.074%

By looking at the death rate as a proportion of the total population, we can see that Sweden has a higher death rate compared to Australia. This means that a larger proportion of Sweden's population has died from COVID-19 compared to Australia's population.

I also point out that there are many factors that influence these numbers. These can include the demographic makeup of the population, the public health measures taken in response to the pandemic, the capacity of the healthcare system, and the speed and extent of vaccine distribution, among other things. It's also important to consider the broader health, social, and economic impacts of the pandemic, which can't be captured by looking at death rates alone.

In the case of Australia, while the number of deaths has increased in 2022, it still has a lower death rate compared to Sweden when considering the total population size.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

What a weird thing to say. Do you want a list of what people might normally do if they are not subject to a curfew?



Albo has promised a Royal Commision style inquiry. He's avoiding announcing when it will happen or more importantly, funding it.

It was a lockdown. They weren't allowed to do much at all.
The curfew was just a way of enforcing the lockdown when too many dickheads ignored it.
You cannot treat people like adults when they won't take on any responsibility.

 

[MrKK]

Let's look at the number of deaths as a proportion of the total population for each country to get an idea of the death rate. This can give us a more accurate picture since countries have different population sizes.

For Sweden:

Total COVID-19 deaths: 23,777
Total population: 10,279,755
Death rate: 23,777 / 10,279,755 = 0.00231 or 0.231%

For Australia:

Total COVID-19 deaths: 19,574
Total population: 26,349,090
Death rate: 19,574 / 26,349,090 = 0.00074 or 0.074%

By looking at the death rate as a proportion of the total population, we can see that Sweden has a higher death rate compared to Australia. This means that a larger proportion of Sweden's population has died from COVID-19 compared to Australia's population.

I also point out that there are many factors that influence these numbers. These can include the demographic makeup of the population, the public health measures taken in response to the pandemic, the capacity of the healthcare system, and the speed and extent of vaccine distribution, among other things. It's also important to consider the broader health, social, and economic impacts of the pandemic, which can't be captured by looking at death rates alone.

In the case of Australia, while the number of deaths has increased in 2022, it still has a lower death rate compared to Sweden when considering the total population size.

If, in 2023, you're going to continue using Covid deaths rather than excess deaths or total deaths to compare pandemic outcomes between countries then you're not arguing in good faith and there is no point continuing here.

 

[Malifice]

They're telling me that Sweden is consistently at or near the bottom, and better than the countries that supposedly did all of the right things during their pandemic response and which Sweden didn't do.

Sweden (and its Nordic neighbors) has always been consistently near the bottom though. Credit there lies with the Scandinavian health care and welfare system.

Its currently on par with its Nordic neighbors who did lock down and imposed more serious restrictions.

You know when it wasnt on par with its Nordic neighbors? During the ******* Pandemic.

 

[Malifice]

Let's look at the number of deaths as a proportion of the total population for each country to get an idea of the death rate. This can give us a more accurate picture since countries have different population sizes.

For Sweden:

Total COVID-19 deaths: 23,777
Total population: 10,279,755
Death rate: 23,777 / 10,279,755 = 0.00231 or 0.231%

For Australia:

Total COVID-19 deaths: 19,574
Total population: 26,349,090
Death rate: 19,574 / 26,349,090 = 0.00074 or 0.074%

By looking at the death rate as a proportion of the total population, we can see that Sweden has a higher death rate compared to Australia. This means that a larger proportion of Sweden's population has died from COVID-19 compared to Australia's population.

I also point out that there are many factors that influence these numbers. These can include the demographic makeup of the population, the public health measures taken in response to the pandemic, the capacity of the healthcare system, and the speed and extent of vaccine distribution, among other things. It's also important to consider the broader health, social, and economic impacts of the pandemic, which can't be captured by looking at death rates alone.

In the case of Australia, while the number of deaths has increased in 2022, it still has a lower death rate compared to Sweden when considering the total population size.

You're literally arguing with someone who refuses to use 'Number of lives saved/ deaths from COVID' as a measure of how appropriate the States response was to handling the COVID pandemic in that country.

Surely that's the first (and most important) number we look at, but hey.

Apparently, the fact Sweden and the rest of Scandinavia now (post pandemic) has low excess deaths (as they and the rest of Scandinavia also had pre-pandemic) is somehow much more relevant.

Im trying to find out why he thinks this is somehow not only more relevant than 'lives saved/ lost' but how its actually relevant at all.

 

[Roby]

Yes Australia had more excess deaths but we are not really concerning comparing apples with apples.

There are also different demographics, economics, culture and health care between Sweden and Australia.

But if we compare Sweden with it's neighbours:

Denmark has an excess mortality rate of 2.6%.
Finland has an excess mortality rate of 1.5%.
Norway has an excess mortality rate of 1.2%

As for Sweden, one study mentioned that Sweden had about 3.3% more deaths than were expected.

It doesn't matter how you try to spin it appears Sweden does not look optimal for a pandemic response.
Now I'm not a epidemiologist, I just study the viruses, so take my epedmiology with a grain of salt.

 

[Malifice]

If we compare Sweden with it's neighbours:

Denmark has an excess mortality rate of 2.6%.
Finland has an excess mortality rate of 1.5%.
Norway has an excess mortality rate of 1.2%

As for Sweden, one study mentioned that Sweden had about 3.3% more deaths than were expected.

As you've pointed out, the many studies on excess death spike post pandemic has Sweden on par with its Scandi neighbors.

Where they were not on par with their Scandi neighbors was 'people that died from COVID'.

Even the Swedes conceed they got it wrong. But some people want to keep bringing them up for some reason, when all the Swedish experiment shows us is that their response sucked.

 

[Roby]

As you've pointed out, the many studies on excess death spike post pandemic has Sweden on par with its Scandi neighbors.

Where they were not on par with their Scandi neighbors was 'people that died from COVID'.

Even the Swedes conceed they got it wrong. But some people want to keep bringing them up for some reason, when all the Swedish experiment shows us is that their response sucked.

Well I'm assuming that had Australia followed the Swedish approach then the excess deaths in Australia would be even higher.

These deadly contagions don't come around often but they're a big disruption to society. There is no one answer that will solve everything as some like to think

 

[Malifice]

Well I'm assuming that had Australia followed the Swedish approach then the excess deaths in Australia would be even higher.

These deadly contagions don't come around often but they're a big disruption to society. There is no one answer that will solve everything as some like to think

Id actually expect excess deaths to spike in jurisdictions with high lockdown rates after those lockdowns ended.

It was a noted phenomenon during lockdowns that other transmissible diseases (the Flu etc) also were affected by lockdowns and virtually disappeared for a few years.

Ending lockdowns, and they then come back with a vengeance, targeting the people that have just recovered from a severe respatory illness (COVID) a year before hand.

We're also at the point now where people are routinely not reporting COVID infections when infected (were just living with it, as we will forever now). COVID being the lethal s**t it is, a significant number of those excess death spikes around the world (relative to excess deaths before COVID) are likely attributable to COVID.

Cookers want to try and paint the excess deaths as 'vaccine injuries and suicides' of course, with zero evidence that's the case (and despite overwhelming scientific evidence it's not the case).

 

[Roby]

Id actually expect excess deaths to spike in jurisdictions with high lockdown rates after those lockdowns ended.

It was a noted phenomenon during lockdowns that other transmissible diseases (the Flu etc) also were affected by lockdowns and virtually disappeared for a few years.

Ending lockdowns, and they then come back with a vengeance, targeting the people that have just recovered from a severe respatory illness (COVID) a year before hand.

We're also at the point now where people are routinely not reporting COVID infections when infected (were just living with it, as we will forever now). COVID being the lethal s**t it is, a significant number of those excess death spikes around the world (relative to excess deaths before COVID) are likely attributable to COVID.

Cookers want to try and paint the excess deaths as 'vaccine injuries and suicides' of course, with zero evidence that's the case (and despite overwhelming scientific evidence it's not the case).

Well suicide rates went down during the pandemic.

As for vaccine injuries ... You might as well tell me the Earth is flat. Sure there are vaccine injuries, and sure the Earth is flat... In some areas.

A lot excess deaths were from undiagnosed COVID cases. I study the virus so I know what it can do; other than respiratory illness, it can affect the brain, it can affect the heart.


The Spanish Flu had a lot of deaths that were mostly undiagnosed but only attributed later on when the dust had settled and better science became available. If we look to that example we know that a lot COVID deaths went undiagnosed for a large part of the pandemic.

 

[Frank Bunn]

You have another explanation as to why Australias death toll and CFR are a fraction of those of the USA, Canada and the UK (who used less stringent lockdowns and vaccination mandates) and is on par with New Zealands (who had similar mandates to us)?

If so, I'd love to hear it.

If it wasnt down to strict vaccination and isolation orders in place, what was it down to?

COVID is stronger in the Northern Hemisphere or something?

While you're at it, can you also explain the disparity in Sweden vs the rest of Scandinavia?

I'm not going to get into it all especially with someone who keeps threatening to ban posters for expressing certain views on this matter.

But Australia's considered and reviewed plans balanced health pandemic measures against the impact on other health concerns including mental health, cancer diagnosis, and cardiac issues. It also balanced health measures against other impacts on society such as education, human rights, social freedom.

The proposed measures depended on the severity level of the pandemic. Was it ever assessed that we reached the high severity that was compared to Spanish Flu? Why we didn't follow our plan?

That's why I would like to see a Royal Commission on our response to the pandemic. What impacts did the measures have on our society, not just in terms of Covid but cancer diagnosis, education, mental health, human rights, businesses closing.

 

[Gralin]

If, in 2023, you're going to continue using Civid deaths rather than excess deaths or total deaths to compare pandemic outcomes between countries then you're not arguing in good faith and there is no point continuing here.

As posted previously, Sweden has come out better than everyone on those measures, including their Scandinavian neighbours.

It is 2023

if all you are going to argue is Sweden did good because of one metric then yeah its almost like you only want people to agree with your view that hasn't changed since 2020

Long covid is a massive issue

repeat infections are a massive issue

deaths are bad but only measuring the success of covid measures based on one measurement in relation to death is taking a real narrow view of success

personally I think we s**t the bed when we opened up and let it run rampant and pretended it was done

because capitalism doesn't care if people die as long as profits go up


and now its complaining that there aren't enough fit workers, gee I wonder why not?

 

[Roby]

It is 2023

if all you are going to argue is Sweden did good because of one metric then yeah its almost like you only want people to agree with your view that hasn't changed since 2020

Long covid is a massive issue

repeat infections are a massive issue

deaths are bad but only measuring the success of covid measures based on one measurement in relation to death is taking a real narrow view of success

personally I think we s**t the bed when we opened up and let it run rampant and pretended it was done

because capitalism doesn't care if people die as long as profits go up


and now its complaining that there aren't enough fit workers, gee I wonder why not?

MrKK said I wasn't arguing in good because I didn't mention excess deaths. I gave them numbers... Crickets.

They're only after one narritve and if they don't get it they just pretend it's not happening.

 

[MrKK]

Yes Australia had more excess deaths but we are not really concerning comparing apples with apples.

There are also different demographics, economics, culture and health care between Sweden and Australia.

But if we compare Sweden with it's neighbours:

Denmark has an excess mortality rate of 2.6%.
Finland has an excess mortality rate of 1.5%.
Norway has an excess mortality rate of 1.2%

As for Sweden, one study mentioned that Sweden had about 3.3% more deaths than were expected.

It doesn't matter how you try to spin it appears Sweden does not look optimal for a pandemic response.
Now I'm not a epidemiologist, I just study the viruses, so take my epedmiology with a grain of salt.

Is it the same source for those Scandinavian stats? Reads like you've linked one calculation that has Sweden are 3.3% and compared it to other countries sourced from somewhere else. Something about apples and oranges.

Even so, 3.3% during a once-in-a-century pandemic when they had multiple waves of the deadliest strains before any vaccines seems about par to me. And if it's bad, then Australia's comparable results when the vast majority of our infections were weaker strains in a vaccinated population is a ******* disaster.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

The article i posted earlier had this to say on Sweden.

Sweden proved that shoring up wealth, health and social infrastructure before an outbreak can significantly lower the human cost of pursuing a more relaxed strategy.

That ain't us.

 

[Malifice]

Is it the same source for those Scandinavian stats?

The Spectator, the OECD and the EU comission are not reliable enough for you?

That's where I got my three independent studies on excess mortality from.

Even so, 3.3% during a once-in-a-century pandemic

Not during the pandemic. After the pandemic.

And if it's bad, then Australia's comparable results when the vast majority of our infections were weaker strains in a vaccinated population is a ******* disaster.

Your inference being our excess deaths are somehow related to our pandemic response (so either suicides from lockdowns, or vaccination injuries).

Allow me to give you the benefit of the doubt here. You're linking 'excess deaths' with 'Pandemic response'.

Explain why those two things are connected, and how.

 

[Roby]

Is it the same source for those Scandinavian stats? Reads like you've linked one calculation that has Sweden are 3.3% and compared it to other countries sourced from somewhere else. Something about apples and oranges.

Even so, 3.3% during a once-in-a-century pandemic when they had multiple waves of the deadliest strains before any vaccines seems about par to me. And if it's bad, then Australia's comparable results when the vast majority of our infections were weaker strains in a vaccinated population is a ******* disaster.

It is not true Australia had weaker strains. They had more severe and less severe like everyone else. Do you realise there are thousands of new variants created every day with only a few of them being recorded?

We also had a much more vaccinated population so regardless of severity it was always going to have less of an effect and why Australia's death rate was lower than Sweden.

 

[Malifice]

MrKK

Still waiting. You're saying 'excess deaths' are being caused by or somehow connected to 'Pandemic response'.

Explain why those two things are connected, and how.

 

[Cap]

MrKK

Still waiting. You're saying 'excess deaths' are being caused by or somehow connected to 'Pandemic response'.

Explain why those two things are connected, and how.

He is currently on the Crows board reading up on what our own resident nutters are saying.

Might take a bit of time to copy paste it.

 

[Crankyhawk]

Sweden (and its Nordic neighbors) has always been consistently near the bottom though. Credit there lies with the Scandinavian health care and welfare system.

Its currently on par with its Nordic neighbors who did lock down and imposed more serious restrictions.

You know when it wasnt on par with its Nordic neighbors? During the ******* Pandemic.

I suppose that if one has excess deaths earlier (ie during a pandemic) you would expect the following years to have reduced excess deaths - if the deaths occurred in frail persons who otherwise would have died in the next 2-5 years anyway.

I have not looked at the numbers in detail so do not know whether it follows this pattern. Just a conjecture.