All things Politics

[DinoSoar]

It is recognised that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have connections to either side of the conflict. What you need to understand is that this site has rules governing posting standards and the appropriate way to talk to other posters, and you will abide by them.

How this interacts with this thread is that the following will result in your post being deleted, with a recurrence of the same behaviour resulting in (depending on severity) a threadban for a week and a day off:

• direct labelling of someone as anti-semitic or a terrorist sympathiser for posting that is merely critical of Israel's response over time. Israel has the right to defend themselves from violence, but that does not mean that Israel has carte blanche to attack disproportionately towards people under their care.
• deliberate goading or flippant responses, designed to get people reacting to your posting emotionally.
• abuse.
• attempts to turn this into a Left vs Right shitfight.
• Use the word 'Nazi' in here, you had better be able to justify it in the post you're making and the comparison had better be apt. Godwin's law is in full effect for the purposes of this thread; if you refer to Nazis, you've lost whatever argument you're involved in.
• Any defense of Hamas' actions on the basis of justification. There's no justification for genocide, regardless of whether or not they have the power to do so.

Please recognise that this is a difficult time for all involved, and some level of sensitivity is absolutely required to permit discussion to flow. From time to time, mods will reach out to specific posters and do some welfare checks; we may even give posters who get a bit too involved some days off to give people some time to cool down. This is not a reflection on you as a poster, merely that this is an intense subject.

I get that this is a fairly intense topic about which opinion can diverge rather significantly. If you feel you cannot be respectful in your disagreement with another poster, it is frequently better to refuse to engage than it is to take up the call.

From this point, any poster who finds themselves directly insulting another poster will find themselves receiving a threadban and an infraction, with each subsequent reoccurance resulting in steadily more points added to your account.

It has also become apparent that this needs to be said: just because someone moderates this forum that does not hold them to a different standard of posting than anyone else. All of us were posters first, and we are allowed to hold opinions on this and share them on this forum.

Treat each other with the respect each of you deserve.

Maggie5 Gone Critical Anzacday Jen2310

 

[Markfs]

It seems that the IDF has gone back to the north of gaza to rid the area of what they call "hamas breeders". It appears that israeli gov't has firm evidence that hamas fighters started out as what they term "zygotes" which have.a close relationship to these women, and the IDF is going to purge the area of fertile female breeders to break the cycle.

 

[IlovethePies]

It is recognised that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have connections to either side of the conflict. What you need to understand is that this site has rules governing posting standards and the appropriate way to talk to other posters, and you will abide by them.

How this interacts with this thread is that the following will result in your post being deleted, with a recurrence of the same behaviour resulting in (depending on severity) a threadban for a week and a day off:

• direct labelling of someone as anti-semitic or a terrorist sympathiser for posting that is merely critical of Israel's response over time. Israel has the right to defend themselves from violence, but that does not mean that Israel has carte blanche to attack disproportionately towards people under their care.
• deliberate goading or flippant responses, designed to get people reacting to your posting emotionally.
• abuse.
• attempts to turn this into a Left vs Right shitfight.
• Use the word 'Nazi' in here, you had better be able to justify it in the post you're making and the comparison had better be apt. Godwin's law is in full effect for the purposes of this thread; if you refer to Nazis, you've lost whatever argument you're involved in.
• Any defense of Hamas' actions on the basis of justification. There's no justification for genocide, regardless of whether or not they have the power to do so.

Please recognise that this is a difficult time for all involved, and some level of sensitivity is absolutely required to permit discussion to flow. From time to time, mods will reach out to specific posters and do some welfare checks; we may even give posters who get a bit too involved some days off to give people some time to cool down. This is not a reflection on you as a poster, merely that this is an intense subject.

I get that this is a fairly intense topic about which opinion can diverge rather significantly. If you feel you cannot be respectful in your disagreement with another poster, it is frequently better to refuse to engage than it is to take up the call.

From this point, any poster who finds themselves directly insulting another poster will find themselves receiving a threadban and an infraction, with each subsequent reoccurance resulting in steadily more points added to your account.

It has also become apparent that this needs to be said: just because someone moderates this forum that does not hold them to a different standard of posting than anyone else. All of us were posters first, and we are allowed to hold opinions on this and share them on this forum.

Treat each other with the respect each of you deserve.

Maggie5 Gone Critical Anzacday Jen2310

Hamas did not commit "genocide". Your final dotpoint is totally inappropriate. It is necessary in this discussion to be completely accurate with all language used, as you yourself have emphasized. Genocide means the industrial scale annihilation of a population, targeted for ethnicity/religious beliefs etc. What Hamas carried out on October 7 in no way can be compared to this definition.

 

[Markfs]

i went to the news.com.au site for my usual fix of research on who is sleeping with who in hollywood and the royal stuff....and I was confronted with an article headlining the page about jerusalem 10,000 years ago. WTF? Is it time to be programmed about the israeli "ownership" of jerusalem, already? I'm just becoming acustomed to genocide... It seems there really was a david and a goliath and all that other rubbish. I think they're going to make it an offence of anti-semiticism if you question it.

 

[IlovethePies]

i went to the news.com.au site for my usual fix of research on who is sleeping with who in hollywood and the royal stuff....and I was confronted with an article headlining the page about jerusalem 10,000 years ago. WTF? Is it time to be programmed about the israeli "ownership" of jerusalem, already? I'm just becoming acustomed to genocide... It seems there really was a david and a goliath and all that other rubbish. I think they're going to make it an offence of anti-semiticism if you question it.

The Albanese government and its loyal Liberal opposition are attempting to criminalise all opposition to genocide as "anti-Semitic", even though there are hundreds of thousands of Jewish people across the world who are participating in the pro-Palestine demonstrations. The Herald sun is merely the crudest expression of the political line of the Albanese goverment.

 

[sr36]

A bill making its way through Congress (the 'Antisemitism Awareness' bill) proposes a definition of antisemitism which would in many cases equate criticism of Israel with antisemitism.

It would demand that universities crack down on such criticism, or otherwise threaten their federal funding.

The willingness of the US to compromise its own First Amendment --and its democracy-- to protect Israel's genocide has somewhat surprised me.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/05/01/antisemitism-awarness-act-campus-protests/

Clicking on that link made we realise that a big issue that Israel and the Yanks face in terms of global sentiment is that they can't control it anymore because the reputable US media outlets are all paywalled. Al Jazeera being free access is making them dominate online coverage of the war - when in the past NYT would have been the go to.

 

[JB1975]

A few days ago I saw a Palestinian father lamenting beside the body of his teenage son. The boy's body was contained in a bag, only a head with lifeless eyes open to the world.

My son is slightly older, but there was a goofiness to the head peeking out of a body bag which reminded me of him, and then I felt a splinter of pain for what that father was going through.

His boy had been ripped away and now he had to be torn away from what remained. His beautiful son.

Every day by the hundreds. 10 become 15 become 20,000. The smashed bodies of infants carried from rubble by confused men. Doctors with no choice but to hack off limbs which would be saved in better conditions. Children with no families shuffling behind adults because they don't know what else to do, the adults shuffling from one 'safe zone' to another.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

In this world, the priority of the US and Australian government is to create laws which make it harder to express the barbarism being committed by Israel.

Bob Hawke once had a few tears in public for the students of Tiananmen Square. I don't expect an emotional display from Albanese, given this government's implicit support for the mass murder in Gaza.

 

[Maggie5]

Hamas did not commit "genocide". Your final dotpoint is totally inappropriate. It is necessary in this discussion to be completely accurate with all language used, as you yourself have emphasized. Genocide means the industrial scale annihilation of a population, targeted for ethnicity/religious beliefs etc. What Hamas carried out on October 7 in no way can be compared to this definition.

Perhaps you may have misread the final point?

I read that, despite what is happening in Gaza and Rafa against the Palestinians it does not justify Hamas actions.

Any defense of Hamas' actions on the basis of justification. I have not seen anyone on our site support or defend Hamas.

There's no justification for genocide, regardless of whether or not they have the power to do so. Think that everyone agrees with this and have posted accordingly.

Genocide: the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.
On a personal level, think that what is happening is pretty close to this.

It is possible to defend the Palestinian people and condemn Hamas, just as it is possible to condemn Israel and defend Jews.

Words do matter but so does interpretation of those words.

 

[manicpie]

Perhaps you may have misread the final point?

I read that, despite what is happening in Gaza and Rafa against the Palestinians it does not justify Hamas actions.

Any defense of Hamas' actions on the basis of justification. I have not seen anyone on our site support or defend Hamas.

There's no justification for genocide, regardless of whether or not they have the power to do so. Think that everyone agrees with this and have posted accordingly.

Genocide: the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.
On a personal level, think that what is happening is pretty close to this.

It is possible to defend the Palestinian people and condemn Hamas, just as it is possible to condemn Israel and defend Jews.

Words do matter but so does interpretation of those words.

Israel's intention was never to kill and wipe out all palestinians. It's intention is to wipe out Hamas. Prior warning has been given to all their attacks, just like the recent bombing of Raffah. Thousands of palestinians live in Israel and piecefully. Could it be that Hamas won't let civilians leave targeted areas. They set up their bases under schools and hospitals. If Hamas surrender today, there would be no more killing. I expect a barrage of counter posts but I stand by this. If Israel pulled out today and Hamas keeps their foothold in Palestine, do you think we would see a massive missile attack on Israel? , or do you think Hamas would just let it go. Please stop with the genocide garbage. It's simple, give up Hamas and this would be all over. Israel might be disgusting in what they are doing and I believe it needs to stop now but it's not genocide. Palestine's biggest problem is Hamas. The only thing this thread is achieving is the watering down of one of the most brutal terrorist organisations in the world.

 

[Maggie5]

Israel's intention was never to kill and wipe out all palestinians.

Oh how to reply. manicpie, I really like you as a poster but sadly here I disagree with some of your points.

I agree I would be surprised if that was Israels initial aim but surely over 30,000 killed including children, millions displaced and now suffering from famine is not just 'collateral damage, so sad'.

It's intention is to wipe out Hamas. Prior warning has been given to all their attacks, just like the recent bombing of Raffah. Thousands of palestinians live in Israel and piecefully.

This prior warning BS I don't accept, dropping leaflets, poor internet access when it is working, cutting off electricity and water, limited access to food is not in my books real prior warning. Further, where do they go? Why force them from their homes. What is their choice? Stay and be killed or chose a tent as your next home for whatever period?
I am sure that their homes won't be unoccupied for long though.

This part is personal to me as my family lived in a refugee camp for 5 years, and I can tell you it isn't the Hilton!

Could it be that Hamas won't let civilians leave targeted areas. They set up their bases under schools and hospitals. If Hamas surrender today, there would be no more killing. I expect a barrage of counter posts but I stand by this.

You mean their bases in tunnels (as well as those built by Hamas) that Israel built? You mean the Hamas that Netanyahu funded? What communication did Hamas use to spread the word to civilians? Pigeons?

If Israel pulled out today and Hamas keeps their foothold in Palestine, do you think we would see a massive missile attack on Israel? , or do you think Hamas would just let it go.

Too late for this, too much damage has been done, too many have died.

As a result I think Hamas (or similar terrorist group) has now generations of recruits, which is terrifying after ISIS and now Hamas.

Please stop with the genocide garbage. It's simple, give up Hamas and this would be all over. Israel might be disgusting in what they are doing and I believe it needs to stop now but it's not genocide. Palestine's biggest problem is Hamas. The only thing this thread is achieving is the watering down of one of the most brutal terrorist organisations in the world.

It isn't garbage, not sure how you can defend Israel's actions. I still see it as a form of ethnic cleansing if not actual genocide. I have a number of very close Lebanese friends and initially they showed me phone videos and they were horrific. Asked them not to show me any more as it was too distressing.

No one is watering down Hamas, it seems to me that some are watering down Israel's response.

Anyway, all these points have been done to death, how about we agree to disagree?

 

[manicpie]

Oh how to reply. manicpie, I really like you as a poster but sadly here I disagree with some of your points.

I agree I would be surprised if that was Israels initial aim but surely over 30,000 killed including children, millions displaced and now suffering from famine is not just 'collateral damage, so sad'.


This prior warning BS I don't accept, dropping leaflets, poor internet access when it is working, cutting off electricity and water, limited access to food is not in my books real prior warning. Further, where do they go? Why force them from their homes. What is their choice? Stay and be killed or chose a tent as your next home for whatever period?
I am sure that their homes won't be unoccupied for long though.

This part is personal to me as my family lived in a refugee camp for 5 years, and I can tell you it isn't the Hilton!


You mean their bases in tunnels (as well as those built by Hamas) that Israel built? You mean the Hamas that Netanyahu funded? What communication did Hamas use to spread the word to civilians? Pigeons?


Too late for this, too much damage has been done, too many have died.

As a result I think Hamas (or similar terrorist group) has now generations of recruits, which is terrifying after ISIS and now Hamas.


It isn't garbage, not sure how you can defend Israel's actions. I still see it as a form of ethnic cleansing if not actual genocide. I have a number of very close Lebanese friends and initially they showed me phone videos and they were horrific. Asked them not to show me any more as it was too distressing.

No one is watering down Hamas, it seems to me that some are watering down Israel's response.

Did anyone show you videos of Hamas's initial attack on Israel? Have you ever seen the pictures of body's in Israel from all the suicide bombers on a daily basis in Israel? You didn't answer the question of what will happen if Israel pulls out. The national news a couple of days ago clearly stated that Israel told the people of Raffah to get out. You really haven't addressed any of the Hamas standing in this whole thing. If it's genocide, why aren't Israel bombing where all the tent villages are? That's all I'm saying for now because this thread is toxic and should be banned. It's just fueling hatred from all sides.

 

[manicpie]

Maggie5

Lebanon was the only Christian Republic in the middle East , it was prosperous country and arts and science flourished , Muslims came in as “refugees” and by use of “civil rights” protests and Arab money gained sufficient political power to finally begin the systematic murder of all Christian's in Lebanon…over 90,000 Christians died in the genocide…the history of this has been wiped from school textbooks…
This is the reason why your parents had to live in a refugee camp.

 

[Maggie5]

Did anyone show you videos of Hamas's initial attack on Israel?

Yes

Have you ever seen the pictures of body's in Israel from all the suicide bombers on a daily basis in Israel?

No, Daily?

You didn't answer the question of what will happen if Israel pulls out.

I actually did, see below.

Too late for this, too much damage has been done, too many have died.

The national news a couple of days ago clearly stated that Israel told the people of Raffah to get out.

Did you even read what I posted?

You really haven't addressed any of the Hamas standing in this whole thing.

What is there to address? No-one is denying what happened on Oct 7th and before, it is Israel's over the top response that citizens across the world are questioning.

Israel's superior intelligence service failed them (or perhaps not according to some reports).

Hamas ruled Palestine with fear, they were partly funded by Netanyahu thinking he could control them. They were an illegitimate government voted in by fear. They are known world wide as a terrorist organisation. Murderers with their hatred of all things Israel. No-one disputes this.

If isn't a form of genocide/ethnic cleansing, why aren't Israel bombing where all the tent villages are?

What is the point of bombing tent villages? They can't occupy surrounding countries that are housing the tent villages . They got what they wanted - forced evacuation from Gaza and now Rafa.

That's all I'm saying for now because this thread is toxic and should be banned. It's just fueling hatred from all sides.

Free speech and all that... . It is still possible to engage, disagree and not insult.

You are always free to not engage, read or report posts that you consider against BF rules.

Maggie5

Lebanon was the only Christian Republic in the middle East , it was prosperous country and arts and science flourished , Muslims came in as “refugees” and by use of “civil rights” protests and Arab money gained sufficient political power to finally begin the systematic murder of all Christian's in Lebanon…over 90,000 Christians died in the genocide…the history of this has been wiped from school textbooks…
This is the reason why your parents had to live in a refugee camp.

Nothing to do with my family's situation.

They are not from an Arabic country, not sure what relevance apart from the experience of living in a refugee camp.

 

[gouki88]

Israel's intention was never to kill and wipe out all palestinians. It's intention is to wipe out Hamas. Prior warning has been given to all their attacks, just like the recent bombing of Raffah. Thousands of palestinians live in Israel and piecefully. Could it be that Hamas won't let civilians leave targeted areas. They set up their bases under schools and hospitals. If Hamas surrender today, there would be no more killing. I expect a barrage of counter posts but I stand by this. If Israel pulled out today and Hamas keeps their foothold in Palestine, do you think we would see a massive missile attack on Israel? , or do you think Hamas would just let it go. Please stop with the genocide garbage. It's simple, give up Hamas and this would be all over. Israel might be disgusting in what they are doing and I believe it needs to stop now but it's not genocide. Palestine's biggest problem is Hamas. The only thing this thread is achieving is the watering down of one of the most brutal terrorist organisations in the world.

Manic, this is nonsense

 

[JB1975]

Israel's intention was never to kill and wipe out all palestinians. It's intention is to wipe out Hamas. Prior warning has been given to all their attacks, just like the recent bombing of Raffah. Thousands of palestinians live in Israel and piecefully. Could it be that Hamas won't let civilians leave targeted areas. They set up their bases under schools and hospitals. If Hamas surrender today, there would be no more killing. I expect a barrage of counter posts but I stand by this. If Israel pulled out today and Hamas keeps their foothold in Palestine, do you think we would see a massive missile attack on Israel? , or do you think Hamas would just let it go. Please stop with the genocide garbage. It's simple, give up Hamas and this would be all over. Israel might be disgusting in what they are doing and I believe it needs to stop now but it's not genocide. Palestine's biggest problem is Hamas. The only thing this thread is achieving is the watering down of one of the most brutal terrorist organisations in the world.

You're either speaking deliberate nonsense or not paying attention.

Israel is committing genocide. Look more closely at the definition and you'll see that it applies.

Genocide doesn't need to involve an intention to kill everyone. The effort to diminish a people and to ensure that they have no possibility for independence is enough.

Hamas have agreed to hand over all hostages on a number of occasions, the latest effort was brokered by Egypt last week. Israel have refused each time. The protests in Israel against Netanyahu attest to this.

Israel isn't targeting Hamas. It has levelled around 80% of Gaza's infrastructure, and the tonnage of bombs they've dropped make it very clear that Israel does not care who or how many people it kills.

 

[JB1975]

That's all I'm saying for now because this thread is toxic and should be banned. It's just fueling hatred from all sides.

This deserves a separate response. It looks like one of the thousands of attempts to close down protest or discussion simply because they draw attention to the crimes of Israel.

It's not this thread which is toxic and fueling hatred, it's Israel's unrelenting barbarism.

 

[Markfs]

The PM has stated on a number of occasions that israel will continue to kill irrespective of what happens to the hostages. Maybe it's just another example of him lying.

 

[Markfs]

The head of the CIA, under the direction of the US president, negotiates a peace agreement and Hamas accepts it. Israel rebuffs the agreement, and the CIA director and the US president. The US president continues to lick ass. Those are the facts. No minding reading required. The Israeli PM orders further killing in Rafah and crosses a fictitious red line, mocking the US president. All facts and no mind reading required.

The israelis want to kill palestinians and this will happen. There will be a one state solution. This has been obvious from the start. No mind reading required. Sorry marchers, sorry students... the people in charge have made their decision and its final.

 

[Markfs]

Lesson learnt from Israelis in the last 7 months, why use facts, just lie....

List of massacres in Lebanon - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[NMBB]

The Middle East is riddled with ancient enmities, failed Western interventions, US weapons, religious dogma which is off the scale etc.

No easy fixes here and the Palestinian people have not been well served by the West or Hamas.

To those at the top of the power apex - what's the problem with a two state solution?

 

[Markfs]

The Middle East is riddled with ancient enmities, failed Western interventions, US weapons, religious dogma which is off the scale etc.

No easy fixes here and the Palestinian people have not been well served by the West or Hamas.

To those at the top of the power apex - what's the problem with a two state solution?

no need for analysis here... israel has said that a "two state solution" wont happen.

 

[IlovethePies]

no need for analysis here... israel has said that a "two state solution" wont happen.

Absolutely. The so called "two state solution" was always a fraud - it has been used for decades by the US and Israel to create the appearance that they were genuinely attempting to find a way to address the rights of the Palestinian population, but all the time, impossible conditions were imposed on the Palestinian leadership. The Palestinian leadership at that time bent over backwards to accept as many of the disastrous concessions as they could to try to forge a deal in which they could play a leading role, but in the end the Palestinian population grew sick and angry with their endless betrayals. Hence, Hamas could get a hearing, because at least Hamas made clear what was a self-evident truth to the Palestinian population at the time: Israel would never agree to a "two state solution" which would guarantee the democratic and economic rights of the Palestinians, and therefore they would have to fight for them.
This does not mean that I defend Hamas in any way, I simply understand the desperation that created the conditions where Hamas won an election (2006). Hamas' perspective of fighting the militarised Israeli state, which is funded, supplied and armed by the US government, is bound to lead to untold suffering for the Palestinian people, as we are now witnessing. But from the very beginning, the US and its Israeli client state never intended a just settlement for the Palestinian population. The current genocide that Israel is now carrying out has been years in the planning. There is significant evidence that the Israeli government was aware of the imminence, and the very type of attack that Hamas carried out on October 7, and did nothing to stop it. This provided the pretext for the genocidal onslaught now being carried out by Netahanyu's extreme right wing government.

 

[manicpie]

Hamas has an armed wing and was thought to have about 30,000 fighters before the start of the war. The group, whose name stands for Islamic Resistance Movement, wants to create an Islamic state in place of Israel. Hamas rejects Israel's right to exist and is committed to its destruction.5 Apr 2024

 

[manicpie]

Oh how to reply. manicpie, I really like you as a poster but sadly here I disagree with some of your points.

I agree I would be surprised if that was Israels initial aim but surely over 30,000 killed including children, millions displaced and now suffering from famine is not just 'collateral damage, so sad'.


This prior warning BS I don't accept, dropping leaflets, poor internet access when it is working, cutting off electricity and water, limited access to food is not in my books real prior warning. Further, where do they go? Why force them from their homes. What is their choice? Stay and be killed or chose a tent as your next home for whatever period?
I am sure that their homes won't be unoccupied for long though.

This part is personal to me as my family lived in a refugee camp for 5 years, and I can tell you it isn't the Hilton!


You mean their bases in tunnels (as well as those built by Hamas) that Israel built? You mean the Hamas that Netanyahu funded? What communication did Hamas use to spread the word to civilians? Pigeons?


Too late for this, too much damage has been done, too many have died.

As a result I think Hamas (or similar terrorist group) has now generations of recruits, which is terrifying after ISIS and now Hamas.


It isn't garbage, not sure how you can defend Israel's actions. I still see it as a form of ethnic cleansing if not actual genocide. I have a number of very close Lebanese friends and initially they showed me phone videos and they were horrific. Asked them not to show me any more as it was too distressing.

No one is watering down Hamas, it seems to me that some are watering down Israel's response.

Anyway, all these points have been done to death, how about we agree to disagree?

It's simple Maggie. Palestine wants to turn Israel into an Islamic state. They have every right to defend that. What do you think will happen if that ever takes place. Not even you can deny that

 

[Markfs]

I looked again and it's still a lie but if you say it enough I suppose some people will believe

List of massacres in Lebanon - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Markfs]

There will be no palestinian state because israel wont allow it...irrespective of who the PM is. There is a theory being floated that netinyahoo is the sole villain. The israelis support the bombing and the starvation. It's shown in the israeli polls. End of story. A change of PM is not even possible because the right wing parties that support netinyahoo will walk away if he gets shafted. End of story. No need to discuss. That is the reality.