List Mgmt. 2024 Trade Thread

[phantom13]

What a crock of s**t. Anyone with half a brain knows Lyon is a winning coach and has overachieved everywhere he's gone. "But he didn't win a flag derrr" such a lazy nothing argument

He absolutely did not over achieve with us 09-11. That list should have won a flag.

I dont blame him directly but lets not over inflate his achievements with that team.

 

[Saintos The ITK]

Couldn’t believe it, I actually bumped into another Saints supporter last night. I thought he was an old fella so I was paying him a bit of respect. Turns out I’m 5 years older than him.
Hard life as a Sainter.

 

[gubby88]

Fin macrae left out again. gringo2011 one if your boys isn't he?

Surely could be a target come seasons end

 

[gringo2011]

He absolutely did not over achieve with us 09-11. That list should have won a flag.

I dont blame him directly but lets not over inflate his achievements with that team.

I reckon he did. There were some pretty ordinary players in his sides. GT had the better list around 2005. The best of the old guys in Gherig, Harves, Thommo and the best of the kids in Dal, Rooey etc and a good middle order in guys like Hayes and Milne.

This is the 2008 list and it's got a lot of very average players in it. He's topped up with ready mades to fill out a pretty average side with some really good top end.

St Kilda Playing List for 2008 - Draftguru

www.draftguru.com.au

2007 was probably was even worse when you consider so many were already cooked.

 

[gringo2011]

Fin macrae left out again. gringo2011 one if your boys isn't he?

Surely could be a target come seasons end

He'd be worth a look. I think Mowman was the guy who always pushed for him but he'd be a good get as a cheap accumulator mid. Pies play him as a sub and he does FA. He racks them up in the VFL though, I think Mitchell is probably holding his spot up so if we wanted to get him now would be the time to be in his ear.

 

[The Punter]

2005 v 2009 best 22s (based on games played)

2005

Peckett Hudghton S Fisher
Voss Maguire A Jones
Dal Santo Baker Goddard
Harvey Riewoldt Guerra
Milne Gehrig Koschitzke
Ackland Hayes Ball
Thompson Powell R Clarke Blake

2009

Blake Dawson Baker
Goddard S Fisher Gram
Ray Dal Santo Montagna
McQualter Riewoldt Gwilt
Milne Koschitzke Schneider
Gardiner Hayes C Jones
Gilbert Ball King R Clarke

I reckon that is pretty close. IMO these years both represent lost premierships, with less excuses for 09 than 05.

 

[phantom13]

I reckon he did. There were some pretty ordinary players in his sides. GT had the better list around 2005. The best of the old guys in Gherig, Harves, Thommo and the best of the kids in Dal, Rooey etc and a good middle order in guys like Hayes and Milne.

This is the 2008 list and it's got a lot of very average players in it. He's topped up with ready mades to fill out a pretty average side with some really good top end.

St Kilda Playing List for 2008 - Draftguru

www.draftguru.com.au

2007 was probably was even worse when you consider so many were already cooked.

So a team with Roo, Fisher, Hayes, Dal, Montagna, Kozi, Gardiner (albeit old Gardiner), Goddard, Milne isnt a top 2-4 team (noting you needs some luck and help to win the ******* thing)?

Were all WELL aware that our bottom 5 were trash but thats also Ross' whole thing, some good honest soldiers to play a role.

Dont forget the team that beat us in 2010 had Toovey, Wellingham, Dawes, Blair, McCaffer and Leigh Brown.

Every team needs role players, Lyon had argurably the best collection of pure top end talent outside Geelong in modern football. He might have over achieved at Freo, i dont care to research it enough but he didnt over achieve with us in that era.

 

[saintmike65]

He absolutely did not over achieve with us 09-11. That list should have won a flag.

I dont blame him directly but lets not over inflate his achievements with that team.

GT had a better team I would’ve thought?

 

[saintmike65]

2005 v 2009 best 22s (based on games played)

2005

Peckett Hudghton S Fisher
Voss Maguire A Jones
Dal Santo Baker Goddard
Harvey Riewoldt Guerra
Milne Gehrig Koschitzke
Ackland Hayes Ball
Thompson Powell R Clarke Blake

2009

Blake Dawson Baker
Goddard S Fisher Gram
Ray Dal Santo Montagna
McQualter Riewoldt Gwilt
Milne Koschitzke Schneider
Gardiner Hayes C Jones
Gilbert Ball King R Clarke

I reckon that is pretty close. IMO these years both represent lost premierships, with less excuses for 09 than 05.

There’s at least half a dozen very average footballers on that list in ‘09 I reckon, plus Stephen King was cooked

 

[phantom13]

GT had a better team I would’ve thought?

Sure, that doesnt mean Ross didnt have an excellent team though.

The Hawks 89 team was better than their 14-16 team. Both were very ******* good though.

The discussion isnt was GTs mob better than Lyons, it was did Lyon overachieve with his saints team, i firmly believe he did not.

 

[gringo2011]

So a team with Roo, Fisher, Hayes, Dal, Montagna, Kozi, Gardiner (albeit old Gardiner), Goddard, Milne isnt a top 2-4 team (noting you needs some luck and help to win the ******* thing)?

Were all WELL aware that our bottom 5 were trash but thats also Ross' whole thing, some good honest soldiers to play a role.

Dont forget the team that beat us in 2010 had Toovey, Wellingham, Dawes, Blair, McCaffer and Leigh Brown.

Every team needs role players, Lyon had argurably the best collection of pure top end talent outside Geelong in modern football. He might have over achieved at Freo, i dont care to research it enough but he didnt over achieve with us in that era.

He got within a whisker but for bad luck twice and again with Freo who weren't the best side going around either.

It was a good side with a good system but we met others with good sides and good systems too. The problem with having a side full of GOPs with a couple of stars and zero quality depth is that any injury or bad games from your top players and you are relying on luck.

Who do you have as absolute elite in that 2009 side? Rooey, Milne, Hayes, Dal? Goddard was always inconsistent but built his reputation on finals. Montagna was a very good player but probably not a star. Gram, Fisher similar.

The a step down to Dempster, Gioblert, Schnieder, Ray, Baker etc. They you start getting into some pretty ordinary players.

 

[saintmike65]

Sure, that doesnt mean Ross didnt have an excellent team though.

The Hawks 89 team was better than their 14-16 team. Both were very ******* good though.

The discussion isnt was GTs mob better than Lyons, it was did Lyon overachieve with his saints team, i firmly believe he did not.

He got the most out of them, which is all you can ask of the coach…Geelong had a much better bottom 6 than us in ‘09 & Collingwood were clearly the best team in ‘10

 

[phantom13]

He got within a whisker but for bad luck twice and again with Freo who weren't the best side going around either.

It was a good side with a good system but we met others with good sides and good systems too. The problem with having a side full of GOPs with a couple of stars and zero quality depth is that any injury or bad games from your top players and you are relying on luck.

Who do you have as absolute elite in that 2009 side? Rooey, Milne, Hayes, Dal? Goddard was always inconsistent but built his reputation on finals. Montagna was a very good player but probably not a star. Gram, Fisher similar.

The a step down to Dempster, Gioblert, Schnieder, Ray, Baker etc. They you start getting into some pretty ordinary players.

I listed our topline.

Elite - Roo, Milne, Hayes, Dal, Joey, Goddard, Fisher

Good - Gram, Gilbert, Gardiner, Dempster, Kozi, Schnieder (Jones was a good tagger but role player).

I think the confusion here evidenced by this

He got the most out of them, which is all you can ask of the coach…Geelong had a much better bottom 6 than us in ‘09 & Collingwood we’re clearly the best team in ‘10

Is around what "Overachieve" means.

To me THAT list is a top 4 list without question. He finished top 4 and made Grand Finals. He achieved exactly what the benchmark for a list that good would be.

Im not saying that he underachieved (as you say Gring but for the toe poke and a bounce of a ball) but im adamant he didnt over achieve either. He had a VERY good list that included some good role players and some very average players and he did exactly what i would expect of that list, he got unlucky on GF day.

Im not comparing him to GT but i think we all agree GT under achieved, he just wasnt a good coach.

 

[gringo2011]

I listed our topline.

Elite - Roo, Milne, Hayes, Dal, Joey, Goddard, Fisher

Good - Gram, Gilbert, Gardiner, Dempster, Kozi, Schnieder (Jones was a good tagger but role player).

I think the confusion here evidenced by this


Is around what "Overachieve" means.

To me THAT list is a top 4 list without question. He finished top 4 and made Grand Finals. He achieved exactly what the benchmark for a list that good would be.

Im not saying that he underachieved (as you say Gring but for the toe poke and a bounce of a ball) but im adamant he didnt over achieve either. He had a VERY good list that included some good role players and some very average players and he did exactly what i would expect of that list, he got unlucky on GF day.

Im not comparing him to GT but i think we all agree GT under achieved, he just wasnt a good coach.

I reckon GT was alright for his time. It was a pretty unsophisticated era but injury cruelled his chances. Lyon cut players who were injury prone even if they had big reputations.

What RL does is implement a strict system and that takes out a lot of variables. It stifles creativity and brilliance in some but it extracts more out of more limited players. Some thrive in that environment, some don't. Some that are a bit lacking in focus can get very honed as well.

I think he does a lot with lists that are underachieving more than over achieves but his system is limited as well. Part of winning a flag is being there ready at the right time enough times like Geelong. We are a bit prone to imploding when things don't go our way.

At the end of the day plenty of great lists have missed out on playing in a GF let alone winning one. Getting there is half the battle. I don't think Hinkley has even made a GF in all his years with some very good sides.

 

[saintmike65]

I listed our topline.

Elite - Roo, Milne, Hayes, Dal, Joey, Goddard, Fisher

Good - Gram, Gilbert, Gardiner, Dempster, Kozi, Schnieder (Jones was a good tagger but role player).

I think the confusion here evidenced by this


Is around what "Overachieve" means.

To me THAT list is a top 4 list without question. He finished top 4 and made Grand Finals. He achieved exactly what the benchmark for a list that good would be.

Im not saying that he underachieved (as you say Gring but for the toe poke and a bounce of a ball) but im adamant he didnt over achieve either. He had a VERY good list that included some good role players and some very average players and he did exactly what i would expect of that list, he got unlucky on GF day.

Im not comparing him to GT but i think we all agree GT under achieved, he just wasnt a good coach.

Ross Lyon is a very good coach…undeniable and universally agreed

 

[phantom13]

Ross Lyon is a very good coach…undeniable and universally agreed

Ive never said otherwise.

 

[phantom13]

I reckon GT was alright for his time. It was a pretty unsophisticated era but injury cruelled his chances. Lyon cut players who were injury prone even if they had big reputations.

What RL does is implement a strict system and that takes out a lot of variables. It stifles creativity and brilliance in some but it extracts more out of more limited players. Some thrive in that environment, some don't. Some that are a bit lacking in focus can get very honed as well.

I think he does a lot with lists that are underachieving more than over achieves but his system is limited as well. Part of winning a flag is being there ready at the right time enough times like Geelong. We are a bit prone to imploding when things don't go our way.

At the end of the day plenty of great lists have missed out on playing in a GF let alone winning one. Getting there is half the battle. I don't think Hinkley has even made a GF in all his years with some very good sides.

Thats all fair but i think its silly to suggest he overachieved in that time with that list. To me, top 4 is all any coach can "achieve" beyond that you need some luck and some help to win the whole thing.

Ross had a top 4 list and he achieved commensurately IMO.

 

[Saint Watto]

Couldn’t believe it, I actually bumped into another Saints supporter last night. I thought he was an old fella so I was paying him a bit of respect. Turns out I’m 5 years older than him.
Hard life as a Sainter.

You old F**t.

LOL.

 

[gringo2011]

Thats all fair but i think its silly to suggest he overachieved in that time with that list. To me, top 4 is all any coach can "achieve" beyond that you need some luck and some help to win the whole thing.

Ross had a top 4 list and he achieved commensurately IMO.

I thought we were done after we got smashed by the Hawks in the finals so making it to GF after that was a bonus. I guess it's how you see the list.

King, Sinclair, Steele, Wilkie, Marshall, Nas are all close enough to elite or potential to get there soon. Battle, Hill, Wood, Snags, Butler doesn't look that bad as back up. If we get something out of Crouch, Dow, Henry etc there is enough there to say the list doesn't look that bad now. Injury hurt us but improvement will come from how well Wilson, Windhager, Owens etc come on and quickly.

We'll see if he still has his mojo if we get a full list.

 

[phantom13]

I thought we were done after we got smashed by the Hawks in the finals so making it to GF after that was a bonus. I guess it's how you see the list.

King, Sinclair, Steele, Wilkie, Marshall, Nas are all close enough to elite or potential to get there soon. Battle, Hill, Wood, Snags, Butler doesn't look that bad as back up. If we get something out of Crouch, Dow, Henry etc there is enough there to say the list doesn't look that bad now. Injury hurt us but improvement will come from how well Wilson, Windhager, Owens etc come on and quickly.

We'll see if he still has his mojo if we get a full list.

Ive been pretty doom and gloom mostly cause were horrible to watch but i tend to agree with you on the current list (noting, we seem to just have a horrendous injury history which seems to be luck and management).

I think we need an FA as has been discussed and that probably means a big contract offer to someone. Id still rather we do it and it fail than not do it and stick in the middle.

 

[snails13]

Really hard to say. We are either Richmond who sat mid table then burst onto the scene or North who hovered around mid table, went and bought up players and never really had the cream to compete with the best sides.

GC and GWS should have won 5 flags each if amassing talent was all you needed. North definitely putting together some talent pool though.

Maybe we hire Laura Kane

 

[LifestyleSaints]

I have some massive news.

According to my sources we have made a huge offer to Tim English to get him as a Free Agent. $6Mill for 5 years.....

 

[Miha]

I have some massive news.

According to my sources we have made a huge offer to Tim English to get him as a Free Agent. $6Mill for 5 years.....

Nice

 

[Holy Hunter Clark]

I have some massive news.

According to my sources we have made a huge offer to Tim English to get him as a Free Agent. $6Mill for 5 years.....

If this happens to be true I will deep fry my shoes and eat them, would absolutely love it to happen but I just can't see it.

On Pixel 7 using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Darrian Barnett]

What everyone needs to grasp is that IF we sell Steele, Sincs and Marshall for first round picks, we might be able to turn those first round picks into players almost as good as them.

And, here's the kicker: if these picks turn into good players we can then turn these good, young, players into even more picks!!!