Oppo Camp 2014 non-Geelong AFL match and general discussion

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Teriyakicat said:
Good point about the failed run and carry- maybe the reason the link-up play didn't gel was because of the fact that we really couldn't get any continuity happening with personnel in the team and there were quite a few inexperienced players plus lack of generals to point them in the right direction.
Things start to look shaky when the experienced players are trying to assist the younger blokes when they've lost a few yards themselves, so are not looking at what they're meant to be doing quite as closely... It all gets a bit messy and starts to crumble.
Once a crack appears somewhere, pressure is on the rest of the nearby players to put their finger in the dyke, and the effects become domino-like.

I really thought our first few games were very good but the cracks started to appear and we looked like we were flying by the seat of our pants at times. We were saved by some superhuman efforts from players like Selwood and Hawkins at times but it just looked like the team was limping along into the finals.

Smedts in defence- definitely didn't work. Nakia? I dunno.
Click to expand...
Exactly my thoughts too 'sister'!
 
So the ASADA case may fall over because the key witnesses don't want to talk...
why on earth wouldn't they want to talk now? My theory is they know if they do the players get bans and Charters mate Hird gets the arse? Is all I can think of otherwise makes no sense at all
 

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Snoop Dog's Mock Rookie Draft- amazing analysis. This guy really studies "the form guide" like nobody else.
Thinks Hawks will select Mitch Brown, GWS will select Shroder.
Would like to see these blokes get another chance.
 
I apologise for the diversion, but am feeling terribly sad and flat today knowing it's our final goodbye to Philip Hughes.

Going to be an incredibly emotional, heart-breaking day for his family, partner, friends, and all those who followed the cricket and the little champ's determination to make it to the top.

Vale Hughes.
 
The Pivotonian said:
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...ng-of-future-draft-picks-20141204-1207rm.html

Trading of future draft selections to be discussed.

This was a topic a few of us (Turbocat, dazbroncos, thejester, darren forssman & others) discussed during the year with a few interesting perspectives (especially from those who follow US sports pretty closely).

The main take away I got from the article was the ability of only trading 1 year in advance which I don't believe occurs in the NBA for example.
Click to expand...

would have been useful this trading period in that we could have pushed for the lions future 1st.

i also favour in draft trading, may have saved us from the h-mac/stanley experiences.
 
10lana said:
I am against the trading of future picks, just to stop the damage that irresponsible list managers can do to a club.
Click to expand...

we just need to follow the nba's lead and institute our own stepien rule (maybe the crazy vossy rule):

The NBA prohibits teams from trading first-round draft picks in successive seasons. The rule was put in place in response to Ted Stepien's disastrous run as owner and de facto general manager of the Cleveland Cavaliers.

http://basketball.about.com/od/collegebasketballglossary/g/ted-stepien-rule.htm
 
darren forssman said:
we just need to follow the nba's lead and institute our own stepien rule (maybe the crazy vossy rule):

The NBA prohibits teams from trading first-round draft picks in successive seasons. The rule was put in place in response to Ted Stepien's disastrous run as owner and de facto general manager of the Cleveland Cavaliers.

http://basketball.about.com/od/collegebasketballglossary/g/ted-stepien-rule.htm
Click to expand...
lol imagine having that rule 'named' after you....

also welcome back manboob ;)
 

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10lana said:
I am against the trading of future picks, just to stop the damage that irresponsible list managers can do to a club.
Click to expand...

After my second viewing of Draft Day , I toured the web to see OS reactions to the movie and how real it was. The vibe I got was although some details were wrong , stuff that someone with more knowledge on the US Football game would pick up the one they the got right was the vibe that Costner put out. He at one stage in the movie talks about his year , his turn or something like that. In other words it was about him as much or more than the club. Admittedly he is pressured by the owner but still....

Some websites I also looked at was talking about future draft picks and their success or failure. Again , it seemed that the clubs quite often got stuck paying the bill for the short term "I want it now" attitude of the Recruitment Manager. It certainly was not an obvious win. Put it this way. Imagine a team like Geelong who gets a player like Hmac and pays future picks for him.

If we bring it in , and I think we will , the limits talked about are the minimum required imo. Id be very worried about clubs selling their future and any deal should have to pass a independent assessment. My worry is human nature. Just like when we get rebates with Health Insurance..Health insurance gets dearer ... I suspect when other clubs know you can get a future pick they will be demanding it...quite often for players that really are not Ablett like.

Just like FA , its probably a change thats needed but boy its dangerous if the wrong people are in charge
 
Turbocat said:
After my second viewing of Draft Day , I toured the web to see OS reactions to the movie and how real it was. The vibe I got was although some details were wrong , stuff that someone with more knowledge on the US Football game would pick up the one they the got right was the vibe that Costner put out. He at one stage in the movie talks about his year , his turn or something like that. In other words it was about him as much or more than the club. Admittedly he is pressured by the owner but still....

Some websites I also looked at was talking about future draft picks and their success or failure. Again , it seemed that the clubs quite often got stuck paying the bill for the short term "I want it now" attitude of the Recruitment Manager. It certainly was not an obvious win. Put it this way. Imagine a team like Geelong who gets a player like Hmac and pays future picks for him.

If we bring it in , and I think we will , the limits talked about are the minimum required imo. Id be very worried about clubs selling their future and any deal should have to pass a independent assessment. My worry is human nature. Just like when we get rebates with Health Insurance..Health insurance gets dearer ... I suspect when other clubs know you can get a future pick they will be demanding it...quite often for players that really are not Ablett like.

Just like FA , its probably a change thats needed but boy its dangerous if the wrong people are in charge
Click to expand...

I haven't heard of that film before, would you recommend it?

If it is implemented I'd like to see it done incrementally, just so the clubs can get a taste of how the system works with increased liquidity. And see the consequences of future trades.

Year 1:One future trade per club with picks in the second round and above.(No on-trading of future picks)
Year 2:Unlimited future trades of picks in the third round above(on-trading of future picks allowed) or a single future trade of a second round pick(No on-trading of future picks).
Year 3:Unlimited future trades of picks in the second round and above(on-trading of future picks allowed)

Limiting the clubs ability to make many trades in the early years forces them to consider the value of future picks before making any trade to a greater degree then they would otherwise.

I'd like there to be a permanent ban on trading future first round picks

Imagine if St Kilda traded a future first round pick in 2012 when they finished 9th for a top up player, the next year when they finished 16th, they won't have the pick they need to start a proper rebuild.

Doing the above has some of the benefits of future trading including increased liquidity while limiting the ability of a club to Mortgage their future and allows the competition to avoid early installment weirdness where clubs seek to aggressively exploit a new rule which more often then not comes back to bite them.
 
10lana said:
I haven't heard of that film before, would you recommend it?

If it is implemented I'd like to see it done incrementally, just so the clubs can get a taste of how the system works with increased liquidity. And see the consequences of future trades.

Year 1:One future trade per club with picks in the second round and above.(No on-trading of future picks)
Year 2:Unlimited future trades of picks in the third round above(on-trading of future picks allowed) or a single future trade of a second round pick(No on-trading of future picks).
Year 3:Unlimited future trades of picks in the second round and above(on-trading of future picks allowed)

Limiting the clubs ability to make many trades in the early years forces them to consider the value of future picks before making any trade to a greater degree then they would otherwise.

I'd like there to be a permanent ban on trading future first round picks

Imagine if St Kilda traded a future first round pick in 2012 when they finished 9th for a top up player, the next year when they finished 16th, they won't have the pick they need to start a proper rebuild.

Doing the above has some of the benefits of future trading including increased liquidity while limiting the ability of a club to Mortgage their future and allows the competition to avoid early installment weirdness where clubs seek to aggressively exploit a new rule which more often then not comes back to bite them.
Click to expand...

Agree with all you say on this issue.
We need a system where the club's members and barrackers are "Committee-proofed" against the immediate-success merchants.
 
10lana said:
I haven't heard of that film before, would you recommend it?

If it is implemented I'd like to see it done incrementally, just so the clubs can get a taste of how the system works with increased liquidity. And see the consequences of future trades.

Year 1:One future trade per club with picks in the second round and above.(No on-trading of future picks)
Year 2:Unlimited future trades of picks in the third round above(on-trading of future picks allowed) or a single future trade of a second round pick(No on-trading of future picks).
Year 3:Unlimited future trades of picks in the second round and above(on-trading of future picks allowed)

Limiting the clubs ability to make many trades in the early years forces them to consider the value of future picks before making any trade to a greater degree then they would otherwise.

I'd like there to be a permanent ban on trading future first round picks

Imagine if St Kilda traded a future first round pick in 2012 when they finished 9th for a top up player, the next year when they finished 16th, they won't have the pick they need to start a proper rebuild.

Doing the above has some of the benefits of future trading including increased liquidity while limiting the ability of a club to Mortgage their future and allows the competition to avoid early installment weirdness where clubs seek to aggressively exploit a new rule which more often then not comes back to bite them.
Click to expand...

I usually like to watch sport films and from the POV , yes I recommended it especially as it sort fits in with "our" interest.
Draft Day..http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2223990/
Rather than the contest , its deals with the business side of sport , same as Moneyball I guess. Its a dramatisation for sure , and just like in Hollywood doing the wrong thing works out OK etc but still its gives one a glimpse into what some people would like our draft to be. The Drama of their draft , 10 minutes between picks , trading on draft day and actually in draft.. Its seems to be a red carpet event.

The thing with our draft compared to their is our whole draft is about future. Very few players in the draft are play now and so with the implementation of FA , late picks really have lost value. Trading future R3 picks... I doubt it would have much punch. Where would it be used? My guess , Id say on a Dangerfield type player , if a club is to sell of a player of that value they must get more than a club currently has to give to enable a trade before FA kicks in.
 
Turbocat said:
I usually like to watch sport films and from the POV , yes I recommended it especially as it sort fits in with "our" interest.
Draft Day..http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2223990/
Rather than the contest , its deals with the business side of sport , same as Moneyball I guess. Its a dramatisation for sure , and just like in Hollywood doing the wrong thing works out OK etc but still its gives one a glimpse into what some people would like our draft to be. The Drama of their draft , 10 minutes between picks , trading on draft day and actually in draft.. Its seems to be a red carpet event.

The thing with our draft compared to their is our whole draft is about future. Very few players in the draft are play now and so with the implementation of FA , late picks really have lost value. Trading future R3 picks... I doubt it would have much punch. Where would it be used? My guess , Id say on a Dangerfield type player , if a club is to sell of a player of that value they must get more than a club currently has to give to enable a trade before FA kicks in.
Click to expand...

At the trade table I believe that picks are value drops like an exponential decay equation, so relative to pick 20 a third round pick is significantly lower however it still retains some value. Your not going to see an A grade player be traded for a future second and third round pick, but they could be used to facilitate other trades.

The first pick in the third round this year was pick 41, the last was pick 58. we used two picks in the third round this year and our third late pick was the first pick in the fourth round they still have some use. Given that we're are about to delist a lot of players in the next few years it would be good to collect a few extra third round pick and early fourth round picks to avoid bring in too many picks in the 70s and 80s.

I'll give an example closer to home, the Stanley trade. Showing my bias, but at the time of the trade I felt that Stanley and pick 60 was a little overs for pick 21, I wonder if St Kilda would have gone for Stanley and there third round pick in the next draft.

Same with the Christensen trade, we could have tried to fish out a future third round pick from Brisbane, something we could couldn't do this year since they already used it on a academy player.

Another example lets say a club is only planning to using three early picks st 4,16 and 24, it gets no value from receiving a later pick in trades however by receiving a 3rd future pick, it gets to keep the value of the pick and use it next year.
 
Turbocat said:
After my second viewing of Draft Day , I toured the web to see OS reactions to the movie and how real it was. The vibe I got was although some details were wrong , stuff that someone with more knowledge on the US Football game would pick up the one they the got right was the vibe that Costner put out. He at one stage in the movie talks about his year , his turn or something like that. In other words it was about him as much or more than the club. Admittedly he is pressured by the owner but still....

Some websites I also looked at was talking about future draft picks and their success or failure. Again , it seemed that the clubs quite often got stuck paying the bill for the short term "I want it now" attitude of the Recruitment Manager. It certainly was not an obvious win. Put it this way. Imagine a team like Geelong who gets a player like Hmac and pays future picks for him.

If we bring it in , and I think we will , the limits talked about are the minimum required imo. Id be very worried about clubs selling their future and any deal should have to pass a independent assessment. My worry is human nature. Just like when we get rebates with Health Insurance..Health insurance gets dearer ... I suspect when other clubs know you can get a future pick they will be demanding it...quite often for players that really are not Ablett like.

Just like FA , its probably a change thats needed but boy its dangerous if the wrong people are in charge
Click to expand...

Don't need a movie.

Washington Redskins under Mike Shanahan ( who coach Denver to B2B SB wins in 97 and 98 - he's a really good coach but has made some questionable personnel decisions at times) traded what ended up being 2 x Rd 1 picks and a #2 to move up in the 2012 ( all future Picks) and they gave up their 2012 pick as well to get their QB of the future, RGIII.

He had an amazing rookie year as a running QB and then he popped his knee late.
Came back yr 2 and was not the same. Still played then had some issues with the coach. Coach get the arse after benching the QB of the future.
Into his 3rd year, new coach has benched him again. Knocks on his mechanics started coming out again.

Now the team is out of the playoffs. The QB of the future might be getting traded and Washington still downs have a Rd 1 pick.

It is a very slippery slope to allow trading of future picks. All it takes is one team to go all " Tom Boyd" and they mortgage their draft future. And you know it will happen.

For the AFL, trading on picks on draft day should and will come in - but limits need to be put it. Cap the tradable value to current year and following year. That is enough to hurt a club making a poor call but not enough to kill it for more than 2 years.

They will need a value chart too to allow relative value of pick to be established. Also, NFL values future picks less than today.

Go Catters
 
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Daz , should of know to ask you. As they say , when the Pie is dry , go to the sauce .

Being totally ignorant a lot of the acronyms you have used and the players they refer to would be meaningless to me , but one can read between the lines. Mortgage the future? Well in a way the Dogs example is yes and no. Without future picks they have put themselves under heat anyway...but I can relate to what your saying. Although in that trade they lost Griffen as well so the paid for him to a degree with player , not just picks.

I agree , one season is plenty. There is a reason there are speed limits on the roads , a need to have a Seatbelt on and a helmet when on a bike. A crash can get ugly with them.
 
Turbocat said:
Daz , should of know to ask you. As they say , when the Pie is dry , go to the sauce .

Being totally ignorant a lot of the acronyms you have used and the players they refer to would be meaningless to me , but one can read between the lines. Mortgage the future? Well in a way the Dogs example is yes and no. Without future picks they have put themselves under heat anyway...but I can relate to what your saying. Although in that trade they lost Griffen as well so the paid for him to a degree with player , not just picks.

I agree , one season is plenty. There is a reason there are speed limits on the roads , a need to have a Seatbelt on and a helmet when on a bike. A crash can get ugly with them.
Click to expand...


FYI - Shanahan the coach was a 20 year coach at the time he won in Denver - offensive minded genius was the label. And he did some great things. He liked power however and became HC and GM of the team. His downfall was he thought he was better at talent evaluation than he really was.

Could totally see a MM type - long term AFL person - getting sucked into the hype and burying a team.

AS fot RGIII, he is still with the Skins but not playing currently and there is talk of trading him out at years end. The team will not get value if they do trade out their 3 x Rd1 pick QB.

Go Catters
 
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Redskins pass protection is piss poor imo. RGIII doesn't make it easy for them but even still, he's getting absolutely slaughtered every single weekend. They've given up about 40 sacks this year which would have to be amongst top 5 or so in the league and both McCoy and Griffin aren't overly big boys either, both would be around 6ft'2.
They gotta get that fixed first and foremost.

Griffin to the Bills though, now that would be a nice acquisition which would instantly make them a legitimate playoff contender ;)
 
RG III is mentally gone, and physically isn't what he used to be. Washington trading him would be good for both parties. Still couldn't believe they put him out on the field (last season...or maybe the season before?) when it was obvious he knee was still stuffed. Then getting the ankle injury this year was the final straw for him mentally.
 
I agree Tom. I remember watching that game late 2012 and if I remember correctly, his knee actually went on him early, you could literally see it buckle in slow motion but they kept him in the game and he again hurt it a little later on.
Their mentality of playing through the hurt is very different to almost every other sport where a players future safety is priority no.1 but in the NFL, you tweak the knee and your expected to try and battle through it :drunk:

Still believe his arm is going to ensure his running game doesn't have to be his best asset because there's no doubt he has incredible strength and pin point accuracy but he's trying to correct a lot of his foot work this season which has seen him struggle to make an impact.
 
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