Public vs Private School funding

[The Punter]

You still haven't come good with this request I made yesterday

"The evidence is clear - devolved responsibility for staffing is not working in Victoria"

If its clear you should be able to put your hands on it quickly. Please don't tell me to google it, already tried that. Donuts.

Now once again now are talking about "clarity". Why would we take any notice when you don't even try to back up your CLEAR facts.

If a school (and they do, but don't publicly document it and leave that documentation on the web) hires a graduate over a more experienced teacher because of financial considerations, this is a perverse outcome. And it happens all the time. Schools should be hiring the best person for the job, placing graduates in the schools where they can be best trained, and for that to happen, schools need to have that responsibility removed from them.

As I have said before in many places on here, now that I have provided a response, if it is not to your satisfaction, then I will just have to live with your disappointment.

 

[Sttew]

ummm. dunno if you noticed but that was 60 years ago. there have been several changes to the funding model since pig iron Bob got involved and mind you he was no big fan of the catholic church. Gough did way more for them. The trajectory has only been one way. I defy you to identify one catholic school with worse facilities than the worst Govt schools in that town or suburb. I'm confident you won't. I've seen it first hand rather than 20 second googling of ancient history

I don't have enough insight, but if you based it on land size there are some Catholic primary schools around where I live that are barely bigger than two or three residential blocks. The point isn't whether the worst Catholic school is better than the worst public school; it's that not all private schools are the same.

Whether we like it or not the Catholic system serves a purpose that suits governments of all persuasions. Force the closure of the Catholic system and suddenly 805,000 students from 1,756 Catholic schools will need to be accommodated in public schools. That could not be achieved overnight.

 

[Gruffles]

report writing sickie. don't waste it on BF work

Fixed your post for you. BF a waste of time??? Never!

 

[Reg Grundy35]

If a school (and they do, but don't publicly document it and leave that documentation on the web) hires a graduate over a more experienced teacher because of financial considerations, this is a perverse outcome. And it happens all the time. Schools should be hiring the best person for the job, placing graduates in the schools where they can be best trained, and for that to happen, schools need to have that responsibility removed from them.

As I have said before in many places on here, now that I have provided a response, if it is not to your satisfaction, then I will just have to live with your disappointment.

You call that clear evidence? Just because "you believe it happens" Let me help you with this issue. I hired teachers in the public system for over 20 years using local selection. I never even thought about hiring a graduate who was inferior to an experienced teacher for a second. That's the kind of employment practice that lands school leaders in the loony bin. The panel always picked the best applicant. We needed every good operator that we can get. Can't carry any more under-performers than we already had. Many times during that time our first pick was a grad - sometimes easily, sometimes another ran second.In every case I never regretted the decision - they turned out good. The problem then was to keep them in your school and not have them poached by a private school. As for the experienced teachers who were beaten by a grad? They always told everyone the same thing "they did it to save money" I guess its easier than conceding that there are younger people more advanced than you. Hanging around for a long time is no longer grounds for advancement. Nor should it be.

If you feel like giving any actual CLEAR evidence that I'm wrong I'd be very happy to read it

 

[Gruffles]

If a school (and they do, but don't publicly document it and leave that documentation on the web) hires a graduate over a more experienced teacher because of financial considerations, this is a perverse outcome. And it happens all the time. Schools should be hiring the best person for the job, placing graduates in the schools where they can be best trained, and for that to happen, schools need to have that responsibility removed from them.

Part of the challenge here is the ever changing landscape of education. Sometimes experience doesn't actually outweigh those coming in with the most up to date teaching methodologies.

I'd state the complete opposite for managing classroom behaviour though.

 

[Reg Grundy35]

The point isn't whether the worst Catholic school is better than the worst public school; it's that not all private schools are the same.

well in some ways of course they are and in other ways they are not

Differences - 1. wallets of parents, 2. religious belief system they force upon children, #. whether they row or not

Similarities - !. they are all "private", 2. they all get public money whether they need it or not, 3. they can all manage their enrolments and decline to take kids or get rid of them with ease 4. They all get their money without the same external 4 year accountability and review cycle that Govt schools do.

 

[Gruffles]

decline to take kids or get rid of them with ease

I am forever going to point this out as not correct.

 

[Reg Grundy35]

Whether we like it or not the Catholic system serves a purpose that suits governments of all persuasions. Force the closure of the Catholic system and suddenly 805,000 students from 1,756 Catholic schools will need to be accommodated in public schools. That could not be achieved overnight.

That old waffle doesnt stack up but no one wants to shut them anyway. Just fund them fairly. If you opt out of a Govt service you cannot expect the same level of Govt support. Imagine if that was the case with ALL govt services? Catholics can go for their lives - good luck to them. I went to their schools - took me years to deprogram the religious lies and bullshit they force fed me but I got there.

 

[Reg Grundy35]

I am forever going to point this out as not correct.

in your experience. Not in mine and almost every other govt school principal.

 

[Reg Grundy35]

I'd state the complete opposite for managing classroom behaviour though.

Part of the challenge here is the ever changing landscape of education. Sometimes experience doesn't actually outweigh those coming in with the most up to date teaching methodologies.

I'd state the complete opposite for managing classroom behaviour though.

generally but by no means always. some oldies are hopeless. Don't know why they even stayed in it

 

[The Punter]

You call that clear evidence? Just because "you believe it happens" Let me help you with this issue. I hired teachers in the public system for over 20 years using local selection. I never even thought about hiring a graduate who was inferior to an experienced teacher for a second. That's the kind of employment practice that lands school leaders in the loony bin. The panel always picked the best applicant. We needed every good operator that we can get. Can't carry any more under-performers than we already had. Many times during that time our first pick was a grad - sometimes easily, sometimes another ran second.In every case I never regretted the decision - they turned out good. The problem then was to keep them in your school and not have them poached by a private school. As for the experienced teachers who were beaten by a grad? They always told everyone the same thing "they did it to save money" I guess its easier than conceding that there are younger people more advanced than you. Hanging around for a long time is no longer grounds for advancement. Nor should it be.

If you feel like giving any actual CLEAR evidence that I'm wrong I'd be very happy to read it

My clear evidence is no different to yours: a profile on a web forum saying stuff.

Personal anecdotes at ten paces.

Well done for doing the right thing in your school.

 

[Reg Grundy35]

My clear evidence is no different to yours: a profile on a web forum saying stuff.

Personal anecdotes at ten paces.

Well done for doing the right thing in your school.

I didn't offer evidence - I offered my own experience. You didn't provide either. Just a confident statement the local selection was a failure. Not sure if you were around for what came before it? I have to assume not - it was appalling.


Maybe you're saying its a failure because of an experience you or someone you know had. Thats not enough to condemn a whole system. There are checks and balances in place for anyone who cops a rogue panel. There has always been a merit board waiting to nullify unfair appointment processes and they do get used but not that much really. Not many of the people who claim they have been done an injustice for economic reasons seem to want to test it before impartial arbitrators for some reason. For those playing at home from private schools wondering what a merit and equity process for teachers is - don't worry - I don't think you have them Another traversty for schools receiving Govt funding.

 

[Gruffles]

in your experience. Not in mine and almost every other govt school principal.

We're going to always disagree here - potentially you're talking from historical experience and I'm talking from current day and that could explain our different experiences?

Expulsion is not an "easy" process and not one that gets used regularly, in my experience. For instance, we have a number of students that wouldn't fit what people here seem to describe as the ideal student an independent school wants (ie. high achiever). We put a stack of work into those students to assist them in their educational journey as best we can. We've expelled 1 student in the past 4 years. They were one of our top academic students but brought a weapon to school and attacked another student.

We also don't decline student enrolments if they are Year 10 or below and there is space for them. I've had one on one discussions with 3 Independent School principals about this in recent history as I was genuinely interested in how the enrolment system worked.

 

[Reg Grundy35]

We've expelled 1 student in the past 4 years. They were one of our top academic students but brought a weapon to school and attacked another student.

Did he leave school or go somewhere else?

 

[Gruffles]

Did he leave school or go somewhere else?

He left our school and went to another school.

(Weren't sure if you meant left the schooling system)

 

[Demonic Ascent]

The danger with this, though, is we just promote further education divide than we already have.

How?

 

[barreness]

And not all private schools are the same. To use Cranbrook as being representative of all private schools is unfair. You only have to look at the "Private" Catholic system which represents just under 20% of all schools. Many Catholic primary and secondary schools are firmly at the bottom of the ladder in terms of facilities, quality of teaching and teaching staff etc.

The following true story is worth reading and serves as a reminder that not all private schools are equal:

Why did Catholic schools in Goulburn strike?​

By the 1960s the number of children attending secondary school had skyrocketed.
Catholic schools, which relied on funds raised by the church in their local community, were suffering. They didn’t have enough teachers, school buildings were old and classrooms were overcrowded.
In 1962 St Brigid’s Primary School in Goulburn was told that it needed to upgrade its toilet blocks right away, to meet health and safety standards. But the local Catholic community couldn’t afford to fix the problem. In what became known as a strike, the Catholic community decided to close all seven of Goulburn’s Catholic schools for six weeks.
On 16 July 1962 about 2000 Catholic school children arrived at Goulburn’s six government schools, but the schools could take only 640 students. The schools did their best to welcome the new arrivals, while the Catholic nuns escorted children to their new schools.
The school closures drew national media attention and divided the town.

In 1964 the Menzies government passed an Act that brought in federal funding for independent and religious schools. This happened after decades of lobbying by Catholic schools.

Government aid to non-government schools introduced | Australia’s Defining Moments Digital Classroom | National Museum of Australia

In 1964 the Menzies government passed an Act that brought in federal funding for independent and religious schools. This happened after decades of lobbying by Catholic schools. Today independent and religious schools receive most of their funding from the Australian Government, whereas...

digital-classroom.nma.gov.au

Yep, the Catholics played their hand well and Menzies bottled it(not his first rodeo), both ideologically and pragmatically. Now we live with the consequences 60 years later, paying out the arse for private and ever declining public schools.

Should have taken over the premises, kicked out the nuns, and pumped teaching degrees for a few years. Yet another long term consequence of the short term thinking tories, he didn't like the dirty catholics crowding the nice protestants

 

[Gruffles]

How?

See this post

 

[Reg Grundy35]

He left our school and went to another school.

(Weren't sure if you meant left the schooling system)

See when the privates expel them the public schools are obliged to enrol them. They want the same money but not the same rules.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Selective entry schools are not open to all. It is... selective entry. Only about one quarter of students who apply to get into selective entry schools are offered placements.

At least it's based on merit though.

 

[Gruffles]

See when the privates expel them the public schools are obliged to enrol them. They want the same money but not the same rules.

They went to a private school. Also, no one was obliged to enrol them as it was a Year 11 student.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

See this post

That's not evidence, that's your assumption. The majority of smaller/less elite private schools will survive, they'll just charge a few thousand extra a year or cut back on upgrading their facilities as frequently. I don't see a run of private schools closing based on government funding being redirected to government schools where it should always have been. Most parents who choose to send their kids to private schools will still do so, they're not going to stop just because the fees go up because they've been brainwashed into thinking they need to do it for one reason or another (kids won't be successful if they don't, status/keeping up with the Jones's, some weird religious beliefs etc).

It really does seem like another fear campaign to paralyse people into accepting the status quo. Same as those who argue private schools are actually doing us a favour because otherwise the public system would be overrun. It's garbage.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Anyone with the means will always seek to better their situation or the situation of those close to them. This is human nature.

I think we could get somewhere in this debate with a clear understanding that elite schools are not the same as the entire non-government sector.

Fine, we can start by removing any government funding going to those elite private schools and being redirected to the public system. Then we can review and start cutting funding to the rest of the non-government schools down the track. Gotta start somewhere.

 

[Gruffles]

That's not evidence, that's your assumption. The majority of smaller/less elite private schools will survive, they'll just charge a few thousand extra a year or cut back on upgrading their facilities as frequently. I don't see a run of private schools closing based on government funding being redirected to government schools where it should always have been. Most parents who choose to send their kids to private schools will still do so, they're not going to stop just because the fees go up because they've been brainwashed into thinking they need to do it for one reason or another (kids won't be successful if they don't, status/keeping up with the Jones's, some weird religious beliefs etc).

It really does seem like another fear campaign to paralyse people into accepting the status quo. Same as those who argue private schools are actually doing us a favour because otherwise the public system would be overrun. It's garbage.

I never said it was based on evidence... It's my opinion. Just like it's your opinion that most parents who chose private schooling would continue to do so with a fee increase if funding was removed. I don't agree with that opinion and think that many would actually come out of the system if that happened.

If you actually read my posts you'll notice I'm not calling for maintaining status quo.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

And not all private schools are the same. To use Cranbrook as being representative of all private schools is unfair. You only have to look at the "Private" Catholic system which represents just under 20% of all schools. Many Catholic primary and secondary schools are firmly at the bottom of the ladder in terms of facilities, quality of teaching and teaching staff etc.

The following true story is worth reading and serves as a reminder that not all private schools are equal:

Why did Catholic schools in Goulburn strike?​

By the 1960s the number of children attending secondary school had skyrocketed.
Catholic schools, which relied on funds raised by the church in their local community, were suffering. They didn’t have enough teachers, school buildings were old and classrooms were overcrowded.
In 1962 St Brigid’s Primary School in Goulburn was told that it needed to upgrade its toilet blocks right away, to meet health and safety standards. But the local Catholic community couldn’t afford to fix the problem. In what became known as a strike, the Catholic community decided to close all seven of Goulburn’s Catholic schools for six weeks.
On 16 July 1962 about 2000 Catholic school children arrived at Goulburn’s six government schools, but the schools could take only 640 students. The schools did their best to welcome the new arrivals, while the Catholic nuns escorted children to their new schools.
The school closures drew national media attention and divided the town.

In 1964 the Menzies government passed an Act that brought in federal funding for independent and religious schools. This happened after decades of lobbying by Catholic schools.

Government aid to non-government schools introduced | Australia’s Defining Moments Digital Classroom | National Museum of Australia

In 1964 the Menzies government passed an Act that brought in federal funding for independent and religious schools. This happened after decades of lobbying by Catholic schools. Today independent and religious schools receive most of their funding from the Australian Government, whereas...

digital-classroom.nma.gov.au

What Menzies should have done is nationalise the schools, fix the toilets and get rid of the priests and nuns.