Politics Aussie Fascists and (neo)Nazis

[Gralin]

Can’t tell if this is serious?

You sort of lost me at humanising him and regime.

humanising isn't the same as sympathising

we have a tendency to call anyone who does something bad a monster

you see it all the time even just with normal violent crime

it should be a scarier proposition to show that Hitler was human after all than some strange monster

because the first shows that the capacity is in all of us for this sort of behaviour

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Can’t tell if this is serious?

You sort of lost me at humanising him and regime.

It sounds counter-intuitive, doesn't it? However I think the point Malifice is making is that painting humans as monsters, even if thoroughly earned, conceptually removes them from human agency. 'Monsterfication' makes some of us cursory glancers lose sight of the fallen human.

No, Adolf Hitler was all too human. Some of the path he chose was circumstantial but as beings of intellect we ALL have agency over our moral direction in life. We can choose to fight the hate circumstance might slap us around with, or we can give into it and fall into the abyss.

 

[Beerfish]

I didn't know Hitler as well as Malifice but something tells me had he won the war he wouldn't have just been happy to leave it there.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

I didn't know Hitler as well as Malifice but something tells me had he won the war he wouldn't have just been happy to leave it there.

Yeah. 'Lebensraum' alone is a concept without limits. As a leader your people will always need territory to expand into and resources to expend. And when the ethnic group you're a part of has supremacy over all others and a clear genetic superiority cleansing the locals to MAKE that living space viable for you would merely be like culling dangerous animals, wouldn't it?

No, I don't think Hitler would have stopped with the conquest of the Soviet Union and the U.K either. He was already striking south into Africa, for one thing.

 

[Malifice]

I didn't know Hitler as well as Malifice but something tells me had he won the war he wouldn't have just been happy to leave it there.

If the allies had have left him alone when he annexed half of Poland and not declared war in response, he would have sought to solidify an alliance with the UK (an Anglo German alliance) against the Soviet Union, before invading Russia to put an end to the 'Judeo Bolshevik' threat of the 'Asiatic Hordes' (and to create living space, and secure resources for the German Reich).

While an alliance with the UK would never have happened (barring a Fascist revolution in the UK) he still would have invaded Russia (just like he did during ww2), and the likely outcome of that invasion would have been identical to what happened in the Eastern Front of WW2 (a comprehensive ass whooping).

He probably would have (again) underestimated the Russians, and (again) would have lost.

Hitler was an ethnic nationalist. He wanted a single unified Ethno-State for ethnic Germanic peoples (and was more than happy for other 'races' to have their own Ethno-State as well; see his support for the Empire of Japan).

Not once did he ever express a desire for 'world domination' or anything remotely like that, and for everything evil and wrong with Hitler, he was generally pretty open about his motivations, goals and ideology (he followed through with literally everything he said he would do in Mein Kampf for example, including invading the Soviet Union for 'Living space').

In you're an ethnic nationalist, you support races having their own Ethno State. And not just your own race; you have to support that model for everyone.

Which is why Malcolm X and the Nation of Islam would often appear on Stage at KKK and White Nationalist meetings in the USA. Both the Black and White Nationalist groups supported each other in calling for a separate State for whites only and blacks only respectively.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

If the allies had have left him alone when he annexed half of Poland and not declared war in response, he would have sought to solidify an alliance with the UK (an Anglo German alliance) against the Soviet Union, before invading Russia to put an end to the 'Judeo Bolshevik' threat of the 'Asiatic Hordes' (and to create living space, and secure resources for the German Reich).

While an alliance with the UK would never have happened (barring a Fascist revolution in the UK) he still would have invaded Russia (just like he did during ww2), and the likely outcome of that invasion would have been identical to what happened in the Eastern Front of WW2 (a comprehensive ass whooping).

He probably would have (again) underestimated the Russians, and (again) would have lost.

Hitler was an ethnic nationalist. He wanted a single unified Ethno-State for ethnic Germanic peoples (and was more than happy for other 'races' to have their own Ethno-State as well; see his support for the Empire of Japan).

Not once did he ever express a desire for 'world domination' or anything remotely like that, and for everything evil and wrong with Hitler, he was generally pretty open about his motivations, goals and ideology (he followed through with literally everything he said he would do in Mein Kampf for example, including invading the Soviet Union for 'Living space').

In you're an ethnic nationalist, you support races having their own Ethno State. And not just your own race; you have to support that model for everyone.

Which is why Malcolm X and the Nation of Islam would often appear on Stage at KKK and White Nationalist meetings in the USA. Both the Black and White Nationalist groups supported each other in calling for a separate State for whites only and blacks only respectively.

Ambition is always starving in some people. The more you feed it the hungrier it gets. Hitler's terrible ambition ate him alive.

 

[Malifice]

Yeah. 'Lebensraum' alone is a concept without limits.

Arguably. But in every iteration of it expressed by Hitler and the Nazis, it referred to a campaign in the East, in Russia.

Lebensraum

No, I don't think Hitler would have stopped with the conquest of the Soviet Union and the U.K either. He was already striking south into Africa, for one thing.

Hitler did not want war with the UK, and did not want to 'conquer' it. He wanted an alliance with the UK, and expressed as much (both privately and in his published works) often.

The Africa campaign was to secure oil, which the Germans were in short supply of (and couldn't invade Russia without), and which is what Rommel got sent over there for.

British naval superiority and Australian diggers at El-Alamein put an end to that.

 

[Beerfish]

If the allies had have left him alone when he annexed half of Poland and not declared war in response, he would have sought to solidify an alliance with the UK (an Anglo German alliance) against the Soviet Union, before invading Russia to put an end to the 'Judeo Bolshevik' threat of the 'Asiatic Hordes' (and to create living space, and secure resources for the German Reich).

While an alliance with the UK would never have happened (barring a Fascist revolution in the UK) he still would have invaded Russia (just like he did during ww2), and the likely outcome of that invasion would have been identical to what happened in the Eastern Front of WW2 (a comprehensive ass whooping).

He probably would have (again) underestimated the Russians, and (again) would have lost.

Hitler was an ethnic nationalist. He wanted a single unified Ethno-State for ethnic Germanic peoples (and was more than happy for other 'races' to have their own Ethno-State as well; see his support for the Empire of Japan).

Not once did he ever express a desire for 'world domination' or anything remotely like that, and for everything evil and wrong with Hitler, he was generally pretty open about his motivations, goals and ideology (he followed through with literally everything he said he would do in Mein Kampf for example, including invading the Soviet Union for 'Living space').

In you're an ethnic nationalist, you support races having their own Ethno State. And not just your own race; you have to support that model for everyone.

Which is why Malcolm X and the Nation of Islam would often appear on Stage at KKK and White Nationalist meetings in the USA. Both the Black and White Nationalist groups supported each other in calling for a separate State for whites only and blacks only respectively.

That's fine but I don't think you can unequivocally state he would never have taken it further. He was an insane megolomaniac. I don't think his word that he had no interest in world domination was worth s**t.

 

[Malifice]

Ambition is always starving in some people. The more you feed it the hungrier it gets. Hitler's terrible ambition ate him alive.

Hitler was evil and wrong, but there is nothing to indicate he desired world domination. He wanted a German Nation, for German speaking peoples, encompassing traditional German lands (or lands occupied by Germanic peoples). The only outlier was securing resources and living space in Russia, which again he was always equally open about.

He was more than happy to support the Japanese empire for example, because it had nothing to do with German lands, German peoples or the German State.

On that topic, the Japanese Empire was a lot more expansionist than the Germans. They sugar coated their attempts at creating an empire and annexing multiple nations by way of 'liberating them from European rule and creating an East Asian co-prosperity sphere'.

Hitler was a tyrant who caused the deaths of tens of millions of people. But his goal was not ever 'world domination' and its plainly wrong to attribute that to him.

 

[Malifice]

He was an insane megolomaniac.

No he was not insane. He was perfectly sane.

He was a nativist, revanchist, far right wing, reactionary populist who orchestrated the creation genocidal regime which he led as a dictator. He was convinced his worldview was accurate, and that he was acting in the best interests of Germany and Germans.

That doesnt make him insane. It just makes him wrong (yet convinced he's right), which is far more dangerous.

 

[Beerfish]

The Africa campaign was to secure oil, which the Germans were in short supply

So surely logic follows had they won the war and been able to continue to grow unchecked they were bound to have other shortages in the future which would necessitate further conquests.

This seems like a bit of a blind spot for you.. We should all take Hitler's claims he had no interest in global domination on good faith because he said so multiple times and had clearly proven to be a trustworthy individual through both word and deed.

You're not related to Neville Chamberlain by any chance are you?

 

[Beerfish]

Hitler was evil and wrong, but there is nothing to indicate he desired world domination. He wanted a German Nation, for German speaking peoples, encompassing traditional German lands (or lands occupied by Germanic peoples). The only outlier was securing resources and living space in Russia, which again he was always equally open about.

He was more than happy to support the Japanese empire for example, because it had nothing to do with German lands, German peoples or the German State.

On that topic, the Japanese Empire was a lot more expansionist than the Germans. They sugar coated their attempts at creating an empire and annexing multiple nations by way of 'liberating them from European rule and creating an East Asian co-prosperity sphere'.

Hitler was a tyrant who caused the deaths of tens of millions of people. But his goal was not ever 'world domination' and its plainly wrong to attribute that to him.

Agree to disagree. He was quite clearly insane. His ideas were not those of a sane individual.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

While I can't say you're wrong I think there is scope for speculation. And if Hitler did triumph, think of how the Thousand Year Reich would have educated the generations to come. Race hate and triumpalism being normalised. Racial entitlement expanding.

Personally I find it very hard to believe a Hitler full of hubris with victory after victory would have stopped. Fortunately we'll never know!

 

[Malifice]

Can’t tell if this is serious?

You sort of lost me at humanising him and regime.

It's incredibly serious.

If we want to learn how to avoid making the mistakes of the past, its vital to look at the Nazi regime as humans (which they were) with human prejudices and human motivations.

Depicting them as moustache twirling monstrous villains hell bent on world domination totally misses the point, and gives us nothing to actually learn from.

People elected in a Nazi regime (who were open about what they were and what they were about), dobbed in neighbors to the Gestapo by the thousands, and were then complicit in a regime that orchestrated the murder of 6 million humans in concentration camps.

Humans did that. Which is why humanizing them is vital so we can understand how and why.

 

[Beerfish]

He was more than happy to support the Japanese empire for example, because it had nothing to do with German lands, German peoples or the German State

He was more than happy to support the Japanese empire because it suited his purpose at the time to do so... geez Mal come on.

 

[Malifice]

Agree to disagree. He was quite clearly insane.

insane = in a state of mind which prevents normal perception, behavior, or social interaction; seriously mentally ill.

insane defination' - Google Search

Hitler was perfectly lucid, coherent, capable of insight and reflection. He worked long hours in a stressful job, daily. He was more than capable of managing people, running a country etc.

He was perfectly sane.

Again, trying to frame him as 'insane' deflects from the actual causes of WW2, the ideology he espoused, and the true horrors of what happened in the Holocaust and WW2.

Mental health had nothing to do with it.

 

[Malifice]

He was more than happy to support the Japanese empire because it suited his purpose at the time to do so... geez Mal come on.

No, that's not (exclusively) the case.

Hitler was an ethnic nationalist. He had zero problems with a separate State for every single one of the 'races' of the world, and supported them.

Ethnic nationalists believe each race should have its own lands and State, free from other races, and that ethnicity should be the basis for membership in a State.

Not just your own race. Each race.

Again, this is why you'll see Malcom X on stage with White Supremacists. It's because despite hating each other, they actually have a lot in common.

 

[Beerfish]

insane = in a state of mind which prevents normal perception, behavior, or social interaction; seriously mentally ill.

insane defination' - Google Search

Hitler was perfectly lucid, coherent, capable of insight and reflection. He worked long hours in a stressful job, daily. He was more than capable of managing people, running a country etc.

He was perfectly sane.

Again, trying to frame him as 'insane' deflects from the actual causes of WW2, the ideology he espoused, and the true horrors of what happened in the Holocaust and WW2.

Mental health had nothing to do with it.

Someone who thinks it's perfectly acceptable to murder 6 million innocent people because they're a certain race is not of sound mind.

I get your whole he was still a human angle and I agree to a certain point but you're sailing pretty close to being an apologist with this kind of talk.

He worked long hours in a stressful job... spare me.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Agree to disagree. He was quite clearly insane. His ideas were not those of a sane individual.

See here, I think ethno-religious supremacy is one of the greatest evils of our human condition but I don't think it is insane. It makes perfect sense from their point of view to be surrounded only by people who look like them, talk like them and all have the same background. It makes perfect sense to see all others who don't look like them as lesser beings but competitors for resource and living space all the same. Competitors needing to be eliminated. Genocide makes perfect sense to them.

Ethno-religious supremacy is not insane in the clinical sense I feel - it is just devoid of humanity. It is truly EVIL.

 

[Malifice]

So surely logic follows had they won the war and been able to continue to grow unchecked they were bound to have other shortages in the future which would necessitate further conquests.

Probably.

Which makes them different from the USSR, USA, UK and other States how exactly?

This seems like a bit of a blind spot for you.. We should all take Hitler's claims he had no interest in global domination on good faith because he said so multiple times and had clearly proven to be a trustworthy individual through both word and deed.

To a great degree, yes we should.

Hitler was always open about what he would do (and why). He was open about wanting to persecute and remove Jews from Germany, that Jews were the cause of Germanies problems, that he wanted to annex all German speaking lands, revoke the Treaty of Versailles, ally with the UK and invade Russia, that the world functioned as a 'clash of the races' with the Germans as the master race, and the Jews as the secret puppet masters, pulling the strings and pitting the various races against each other.

He went to great pains to repeat the above frequently, and justified them (and expressed them again) in his two books, and then when he got in power the way he said he would, he did exactly what he said he would do when he got there.

At every single stage of his rise to power, his time in power and right up to his death, his actions and decisions were always driven by the above ideology. He declared war on the USA when already in a war he was losing with the Soviet Union and British Empire, because his ideology informed him the USA was decadent and weak and a puppet of the Jews. At a time when Germany was short on manpower and in a stalemate with the Soviets, he ordered the murder of 6 million of his own slave population, because his informed him it needed to be done.

Hitler was convinced in the correctness of National Socialist ideology. Whenever faced with a decision he was always guided by National Socialism, even when that decision was tactically or strategically poor.

 

[Beerfish]

No, that's not (exclusively) the case.

Hitler was an ethnic nationalist. He had zero problems with a separate State for every single one of the 'races' of the world, and supported them.

Ethnic nationalists believe each race should have its own lands and State, free from other races, and that ethnicity should be the basis for membership in a State.

Not just your own race. Each race.

Once again, this assumes you take them at their word. Very trustworthy people these nazis. Why would we doubt them?

Again, this is why you'll see Malcom X on stage with White Supremacists. It's because despite hating each other, they actually have a lot in common.

Ever considered it was out of desperation? When white people make and break the rules as they please there's probably not much that's off the table when you're constantly seeing your people raped and murdered with impunity. I bet Malcolm X didn't exactly enjoy sharing the stage with those white hooded mother*ers.

 

[Malifice]

Someone who thinks it's perfectly acceptable to murder 6 million innocent people because they're a certain race is not of sound mind.

Truman ordered two nuclear bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. He and Churchill ordered the strategic bombing of Tokyo, Dresden and a ton of other cities in Europe and Japan that combined killed at least a million people, mostly also women and children.

Were those two men also 'not of sound mind'?

 

[Beerfish]

that the world functioned as a 'clash of the races' with the Germans as the master race, and the Jews as the secret puppet masters, pulling the strings and pitting the various races against each other.

Totally sane!

 

[Beerfish]

Truman ordered two nuclear bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. He and Churchill ordered the strategic bombing of Tokyo, Dresden and a ton of other cities in Europe and Japan that combined killed at least a million people, mostly also women and children.

Were those two men also 'not of sound mind'?

In order to end a war. In order to stop insane people with insane beliefs taking over the world.

Classy whataboutism though.

 

[Malifice]

Once again, this assumes you take them at their word. Very trustworthy people these nazis. Why would we doubt them?

I cant speak for all Nazis, only Hitler (based on his historical actions).

Again, he was very clear before he was elected Chancellor what his plans were (he literally wrote a book about it) and pretty much stuck to that exact script (and that exact reasoning) right up to his death.

He wasnt a madman trying to take over the world.

If you want to understand how the Holocaust happened (so it never happens again) you need to understand what Hitler (and the millions who voted for him, and then became willing cogs in the Nazi machine) believed.

Ever considered it was out of desperation? When white people make and break the rules as they please there's probably not much that's off the table when you're constantly seeing your people raped and murdered with impunity. I bet Malcolm X didn't exactly enjoy sharing the stage with those white hooded mother*ers.

Malcom X (at that time, when he was NOI) wanted a separate State for Black people (away from White people), where each race would govern themselves.

The KKK also wanted exactly the same thing.

That's why he was on stage. Because both groups (while they hated each other) also wanted the exact same thing.