Why has GWS done much better than Gold Coast?

[PerthBoy86]

If there's been a thread on this already you can merge it, but thought it'd be interesting to have a dedicated discussion on why the Greater Western Sydney Giants have done much better than the Gold Coast Suns. Both entered about the same time in rugby league heartlands, both have similar membership/attendances (GWS better though I think), but of course since their inception GWS has won several finals, finished top 4 and made a grand final and 3 preliminary finals. GC haven't even played finals. You would think both had the same advantages with drafting and funding and academies and what not.

How much of this is management, coaching, recruiting, culture, fanbase etc? Why have the Giants been a powerhouse who may even challenge this year, while the Suns are burning out with their 14th season without finals? We're getting into early Hawthorn territory here.

 

[Orange crush]

If there's been a thread on this already you can merge it, but thought it'd be interesting to have a dedicated discussion on why the Greater Western Sydney Giants have done much better than the Gold Coast Suns. Both entered about the same time in rugby league heartlands, both have similar membership/attendances (GWS better though I think), but of course since their inception GWS has won several finals, finished top 4 and made a grand final and 3 preliminary finals. GC haven't even played finals. You would think both had the same advantages with drafting and funding and academies and what not.

How much of this is management, coaching, recruiting, culture, fanbase etc? Why have the Giants been a powerhouse who play even challenge this year, while the Suns are burning out with their 14th season without finals? We're getting into early Hawthorn territory here.

You’re gonna get some flak on the “same” concessions …. But you’re not entirely wrong

 

[PerthBoy86]

You’re gonna get some flak on the “same” concessions …. But you’re not entirely wrong

It's also interesting to look through how the interstate expansion clubs have done.

Sydney and Brisbane were in the wilderness until the 2000s for the Swans, and until the Bears merged with Fitzroy. West Coast were already decent in their first season, and made a gf in their fifth season (winning the minor premiership), with their first flag in their 6th. Adelaide won one in their 7th, Port in their 8th, so all saw success pretty early. Fremantle the main exception of the 4 expansion sides in the Aussie rules states, taking awhile to even playing finals and yet to win a flag.

Course we all know this, but be interesting to know why. I do think club culture is a big factor. The Eagles weren't as advantaged as many think, but I feel a strong WA identity was a big driver in the early days.

 

[GoEaglesGoSGIO]

 

[NetworkNerd]

It's also interesting to look through how the interstate expansion clubs have done.

Sydney and Brisbane were in the wilderness until the 2000s for the Swans, and until the Bears merged with Fitzroy. West Coast were already decent in their first season, and made a gf in their fifth season (winning the minor premiership), with their first flag in their 6th. Adelaide won one in their 7th, Port in their 8th, so all saw success pretty early. Fremantle the main exception of the 4 expansion sides in the Aussie rules states, taking awhile to even playing finals and yet to win a flag.

Course we all know this, but be interesting to know why. I do think club culture is a big factor. The Eagles weren't as advantaged as many think, but I feel a strong WA identity was a big driver in the early days.

1996 says hello (year before merger)
Swans made the grand final. Bears made a prelim

 

[Leon]

The answer to this is pretty obviously yes, isn’t it?

Since joining the league:

GWS:

- 1 Grand Final appearance

- 2 Preliminary Final appearances

- 6 Finals Appearances (likely to be 7 in a few weeks)


Gold Coast:

0 to all of the above.



Giants came in with a much better strategy (use the draft, aim for finals in 4-5 years) and it’s reaped them benefits.


Also pretty inarguable that the Giants have a much stronger identity and culture than the Suns.

 

[the harry]

I do wonder what would have happened if JOM hadn't done his knee and Harley Bennell

17

Harley Bennell

Age

32

Ht

185cm

Wt

85kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

21.4

5star

K

11.9

4star

HB

9.5

5star

M

3.5

4star

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2.3

4star

CL

2.7

4star

D

12.7

3star

K

6.0

2star

HB

6.7

4star

M

2.0

2star

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0.3

1star

CL

1.0

3star

D

17.6

5star

K

8.2

4star

HB

9.4

5star

M

2.4

3star

T

2.6

4star

CL

1.8

4star

never went off the rails.

 

[CarmenSandiego]

Weird how nobody wants to play for GC.

Reckon it’d be heaps of fun as a young bloke. Great weather all year round, good lifestyle and plenty to do, can go unnoticed out in public. It really shouldn’t be this hard to build a decent footy team.

Can’t say the same about Blacktown & GWS though, but they’ve made it work.

Culture, people etc. I guess

 

[MF]

GWS made far better use of the original concessions. They basically hoarded all the picks to use on young talent and got their experienced players on the cheap as discards from other clubs.

GC wasted a lot of their picks on established players who weren't around for long.

 

[Handsuper47]

because GWS got leaders to guide the club, while Gold Coast got Ablett who only played for himself and his paycheck

 

[Cyber_punk]

Weird how nobody wants to play for GC.

Reckon it’d be heaps of fun as a young bloke. Great weather all year round, good lifestyle and plenty to do, can go unnoticed out in public. It really shouldn’t be this hard to build a decent footy team.

Can’t say the same about Blacktown & GWS though, but they’ve made it work.

Culture, people etc. I guess

It's a bit of a graveyard for all sports franchises that have tried to go there, no?

Reckon that pampered party/paradise/LA type lifestyle is probably detrimental to building a hard nosed gritty/resilent culture like they have done in Western Sydney.

 

[010203]

GWS got their front office right. I can't say the same about the Suns.

 

[Colonial]

GWS made far better use of the original concessions. They basically hoarded all the picks to use on young talent and got their experienced players on the cheap as discards from other clubs.

GC wasted a lot of their picks on established players who weren't around for long.

To be fair we had no choice but to hoard, clubs wanted top picks for retirees and players who were nowhere near worth it.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Since the Giants came in later, they were initially worse for longer so they could set themselves up with higher draft picks each year. In their second, third and fourth drafts, the Giants got pick 1, pick 1 and pick 4 (pick 3 before Melbourne's FA compensation) from ladder position, whereas in Gold Coast's second, third and fourth drafts, they got pick 4, pick 2 and pick 5. And the first two were traded to the Giants anyway for mini-draft picks, a start-up concession that Gold Coast didn't get.

But the bigger factor is the Giants have been way better at developing players. What helps with developing players, beyond pure talent? Coaching, facilities and culture.

Coaching - Giants started with experienced premiership coaches Sheedy and Williams, Gold Coast chose to start with a rookie who had never been a head coach and couldn't discipline his players properly.

Facilities - Giants were set up with much better facilities. Suns were being run out of tin sheds for years.

Culture - Giants recruited plenty of strong leaders like Phil Davis

1

Phil Davis

Age

34

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197cm

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94kg

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Def

Career

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Last 5

D

13.0

3star

K

7.6

3star

HB

5.4

4star

M

5.2

5star

T

1.7

4star

MG

55.5

1star

D

8.5

2star

K

4.4

2star

HB

4.1

3star

M

3.4

3star

T

1.3

2star

MG

55.5

1star

D

14.0

4star

K

8.0

3star

HB

6.0

4star

M

5.8

5star

T

1.4

4star

and Luke Power

Luke Power

Age

44

Ht

180cm

Wt

79kg

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M/F

Career

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Last 5

D

23.0

5star

K

13.4

5star

HB

9.6

5star

M

3.9

4star

T

3.9

5star

CL

1.9

4star

No current season stats available

D

16.6

4star

K

10.2

4star

HB

6.4

4star

M

1.4

2star

T

2.0

4star

. Gold Coast recruited self-centred players like Gary Ablett Jr, dickheads like Campbell Brown

Campbell Brown

Age

41

Ht

179cm

Wt

85kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

14.1

4star

K

8.9

3star

HB

5.2

4star

M

5.0

5star

T

2.0

4star

G

0.5

3star

No current season stats available

D

11.8

3star

K

6.4

3star

HB

5.4

4star

M

2.8

3star

T

1.4

4star

G

0.8

4star

and cokeheads like Karmichael Hunt. Perhaps with better people around him, Harley Bennell

17

Harley Bennell

Age

32

Ht

185cm

Wt

85kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

21.4

5star

K

11.9

4star

HB

9.5

5star

M

3.5

4star

T

2.3

4star

CL

2.7

4star

D

12.7

3star

K

6.0

2star

HB

6.7

4star

M

2.0

2star

T

0.3

1star

CL

1.0

3star

D

17.6

5star

K

8.2

4star

HB

9.4

5star

M

2.4

3star

T

2.6

4star

CL

1.8

4star

wouldn't have gone off the deep end.

Gold Coast have now finally fixed the issues with coaching and facilities, but culture is a hard thing to turn around, it can take years. Maybe Dimma will cure it in time.

 

[randyzany]

It's a curse for shamelessly poaching Ablett Jnr. Can you imagine the NBA administration back in the 90s paying $100M a year to Jordan out of the league's profits to lure him out of Chicago to play for the Vancouver Grizzlies? None of the NBA team owners would have tolerated such nonsense for a second.

It's the kind of stuff that you see in corrupt developing countries but so many Geelong fans appear fine with it, justifying and excusing it as poor lil' GAJ needed to be "SET UP FOR A LIFE" or some other patronizing crap.

Like he wasn't set up for life had he had retired in 2010 and never played and got payed for another game of footy. I think he had earnt over $5M dollars with Geelong by 2010, and overpayed for that matter for what he had displayed up to that point in 2006.

I was with Bomba at the time, it was disgraceful how he was treating the supporters and the club like utter idiots and happy and proud that he was calling him out on it.

Truth is Dimwitrou put too much emphasis on poaching one of the league's best players and gifting the Gold Coast multiple top draft picks thinking that's all that was gonna take for them to win a flag within a few year's.

It's the lack of planning and investing in top facilities, administrators and coaches that has consigned the Suns to mediocrity.
In footy that are too many players and the field far too large to think a Jordan equivalent can carry his team mates on his shoulders to victory.

No, you need to rely on a Top 10 core of players and a reliable supporting cast of mid tier to fringe players to realistically snare a flag. One individual, no matter how talented, can't overcome that.

 

[Colonial]

It's a curse for shamelessly poaching Ablett Jnr. Can you imagine the NBA administration back in the 90s paying $100M a year to Jordan out of the league's profits to lure him out of Chicago to play for the Vancouver Grizzlies? None of the NBA team owners would have tolerated such nonsense for a second.

It's the kind of stuff that you see in corrupt developing countries but so many Geelong fans appear fine with it, justifying and excusing it as poor lil' GAJ needed to be "SET UP FOR A LIFE" or some other patronizing crap.

Like he wasn't set up for life had he had retired in 2010 and never played and got payed for another game of footy. I think he had earnt over $5M dollars with Geelong by 2010, and overpayed for that matter for what he had displayed up to that point in 2006.

I was with Bomba at the time, it was disgraceful how he was treating the supporters and the club like utter idiots and happy and proud that he was calling him out on it.

Truth is Dimwitrou put too much emphasis on poaching one of the league's best players and gifting the Gold Coast multiple top draft picks thinking that's all that was gonna take for them to win a flag within a few year's.

It's the lack of planning and investing in top facilities, administrators and coaches that has consigned the Suns to mediocrity.
In footy that are too many players and the field far too large to think a Jordan equivalent can carry his team mates on his shoulders to victory.

No, you need to rely on a Top 10 core of players and a reliable supporting cast of mid tier to fringe players to realistically snare a flag. One individual, no matter how talented, can't overcome that.

Not bitter at all eh?

 

[Billy ray]

Christopher Skase curse

 

[MSB ROYS]

Not bitter at all eh?

All conveniently forgets Geelong getting Cameron from GWS.

 

[The Feeder Club]

GWS also benefit from being in a two team town, I know AFL is a distant second in Sydney but the battle of the bridge is still closer to a derby or showdown than the manufactured bullshit of a Q clash. That intensity catalyses a club culture

 

[RUNVS]

Gold Coast did not bring in enough experienced players in their first year, and they developed a really bad culture early on too with the druggies and the god squad.

While Ablett was one of the best players of the 21st century I think there is a very good reason he was never promoted to a leadership position at Geelong. He has to go down as one of the worst captains of the 21st century as he not only had no ability to bring the players together but also seemed to actively try and separate them into different factions.

 

[marcus1232]

GWS were also a year later.
Had the ability to look at the mistakes GC made and adjust accordingly.

 

[Colonial]

GWS also benefit from being in a two team town, I know AFL is a distant second in Sydney but the battle of the bridge is still closer to a derby or showdown than the manufactured bullshit of a Q clash. That intensity catalyses a club culture

Wow have never heard anything said about the Sydney Derby other than manufactured trash.
I mean we don’t like the humourless boring South and they aren’t the biggest fans of us, but outside of that no one has ever championed the Derby.

 

[Colonial]

GWS were also a year later.
Had the ability to look at the mistakes GC made and adjust accordingly.

In the AFL 1 year ain’t enough to see if there are mistakes.

 

[The Feeder Club]

Wow have never heard anything said about the Sydney Derby other than manufactured trash.
I mean we don’t like the humourless boring South and they aren’t the biggest fans of us, but outside of that no one has ever championed the Derby.

There's been some cracking GWS v Sydney games, played at a higher intensity than any Q clash I have ever seen. That stuff is invaluable for culture and experience

 

[emuboy]

Another factor might be the popularity of AFL in the ACT and Southern New South Wales. The GWS Giants have done well to capture the Canberra and regional NSW markets and establish with the Sydney Swans an East vs West rivalry.

In Queensland, perhaps the AFL fans stayed loyal to the Brisbane Lions and didn't really take much of an interest in the new Gold Coast Suns, and there is no real 'Brisbane vs. Gold Coast' rivalry in the region, at least not one I've ever noticed.