Play Nice The NM Devil's Chessboard Thread - Part II

[ferball]

Well to be fair I said "Lebanese Shia, etc". Wasn't singular.

You lumped Lebanese Shia (and people will think Hezbollah) in with the fascist Christians responsible for both those massacres and Lebanese/Isreali military responsible for Sabra and Shatila. Given this discussion is in the context of the current war its not fair to name the Lebanese Shia in this discussion or associate them with those massacres.

It was very much the Shia as the primary involved party. The Amal were Lebanese Shia. Let's not pretend otherwise.

It was nearly three years of conflict between all sorts of groups, mostly framed as Amal v the PLO with Amal acting on behalf of Al-Assad in Syria. That's fairly accurate but it also involved periods where Palestinians fought each other, the Druze fought Amal and the Syrian army killed thousands of Lebanese Shia. Its not as simple as PLO vs Amal.

And even if it was the entire death toll for the conflict, on all sides, is probably lower than that of both the other massacres you cited combined. The ones committed by Christian Fascists. Officially it is tho the official toll is probably an undercount. As far as I'm aware there no actual massacres of Palestinian civilians during that conflict tho civilians were killed during shelling and street fighting.

This was your statement:

But let's not forget that there's been multiple instances of massacres of Palestinians in refugee camps conducted by Lebanese Shia forces, etc.

Its completely wrong. Whatever massacres have been conducted in Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon didn't involve Lebanese Shia forces and they were the only group you named as responsible.

Why is that?

 

[andana]

The greatest country in the world

For what?
Domestic violence. Yes
Indigenous rights. No.

I could name twenty better countries without even thinking about it.

Australians don't even appreciate the unique freedoms that they have.

 

[the big lebowski]

For what?
Domestic violence. Yes
Indigenous rights. No.

I could name twenty better countries without even thinking about it.

Australians don't even appreciate the unique freedoms that they have.

It must be easy to win an argument when you can just make stuff up

Please provide evidence Australia is no 1 in the world for domestic violence.

It’s 8th out of G20 and when you factor in poorer countries doesn’t look like it would crack the top 100.

Next

Indigenous rights……

Not sure what this means

I’ll overlook the over representation of domestic violence amongst the indigenous community (which may only be an issue for you when I white man bashes a woman) and say that I’m pretty comfortable in saying despite “indigenous rights” Australia is number 1.

“Australians don’t even appreciate the unique freedoms they have”

Well i at least appreciate what a great country we live in.

I can only assume you’re not Australian given your description of Australians as “they”. If you are I’d rework your sentence to

“Australians don’t even appreciate what a great country they live in”

 

[Val Keating]

The point is the video, not the handle. I don't like that person's politics, but they have good war content.

And facts aren't pro or anti anyone.

Or are we at the point where you're going to deny your own lying eyes because what you see doesn't fit what you want to see.

(What you're doing here - attack the the source to distract from the content - is harsh right politics 101. Trumpism writ large)

That’s the problem I have re what handle I find what I’m looking for, usually dont have the time to search through the handles posting history.

I just search and find the first one with the video or news ..etc that I was looking for.

 

[Chadwiko]

Whatever massacres have been conducted in Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon didn't involve Lebanese Shia forces and they were the only group you named as responsible.

Why is that?

Chill, man. There's no sinister meaning here.

The War of the Camps is the primary massacre I was thinking of, which was primarily perpetrated by Lebanese Shia.

It was relatively fresh in my memory because a) I learned about it from a Lebanese Lecturer at uni back in the day and he was very passionate about the subject (tbf, I don't recall if he was Lebanese Christian, or Muslim, and I acknowledge it could influence the way it was taught), and also because earlier this week I was reading this article, which refers to the War of the Camps as follows:

"And just three years after the Shatila massacre, in 1985, something started called the “War of the Camps.” That was Lebanese Shia, backed by Syria and Iran, laying siege to the Shatila and Bourj el-Barajneh camps for almost three years with untold numbers of dead and wounded among the Palestinians."

Also, I disagree with your assessment on the War of the Camps in several regards. I'll link sources where I can to support my positions, too.

1) The death toll of Palestinians was higher in the War of the Camps (3800 Palestinians, but that number is widely acknowledged to likely be much higher due to the number of undocumented Palestinian refugees~) than Tall al-Zatar (1600~) or the Sabra/Shatila massacres (which killed an estimated 2000-3000 Lebanese Shia and Palestinians)

2) The War of the Camps was unquestionably a massacre of Palestinian refugees, conducted primarily by Lebanese Shi'ites, in Beirut.

 

[tazaa]

For what it's worth, Israel aren't the only state in the region who likely don't want to see a Palestinian 'army'.

Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, and Jordan all would be very uneasy with it, and the Gulf states have a very problematic history with Palestinians. (e.g Kuwait took in Palestinian refugees in the 80s, and then those same refugees actively supported Saddam's invasion of Kuwait).

Palestine's history in the region is tragic and full of despair. It's awful. And of course, Israel has been by far the #1 cause of their suffering, don't for a second get me wrong. But let's not forget that there's been multiple instances of massacres of Palestinians in refugee camps conducted by Lebanese Shia forces, etc.

And unfortunately, in the instances where Palestinian refugees have been welcomed into neighbouring countries, it's almost always resulted in violence. It happened in Jordan. It happened in Egypt. It ruined Lebanon...

Don't forget, Israel literally offered the entirety of Gaza to Egypt as part of the peace deal that saw the Sinai return to Egypt. And Egypt refused Gaza.

There's no simple solution to the issue - but the most realistic solution is for a genuine two-state system. It won't be perfect, but as long as Palestine is legitimately independent and free, it's a start.

What occurred in the 1960s and 1980s is no longer relevant.

In 2024 Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan could care less if Palestine had an army.
Their preference is the that the Palestinians achieve self-determination and a right of return.

They all believe that they should return to their homeland because sadly they have had to shelter refugees for 76 years. The issue is they cannot.

We know the SLA's role in the 80s and the Civil War. The SLA no longer exists.

When Palestinians take up arms arm and attempt to fight back from a neighbouring Arab nation, when Israel responds that country becomes collateral damage.
This shit will continue for years to come.

The world will end before we see this conflict resolve itself. Thats the reality of the situation.

 

[Chadwiko]

In 2024 Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan could care less if Palestine had an army.

Sorry brother. I know you mean well, but what you've said here is unfortunately not at all accurate.

Egypt especially.

 

[Val Keating]

American forces winning the first gulf war so quickly and easily was one of the main reasons why the second was so flawed.

When the advisors recommended that America hit Iraq with the same strength, and preferably more, the pencil pushers in Washington pointed to the first gulf war and how quickly they won and limited the military’s resources in the invasion.

 

[Val Keating]

I literally said "It's the right message, delivered in a less-than-perfect way, by the absolutely wrong messenger."

Isn’t Lidia Thorpe indigenous?

 

[Sphynx]

You may be right but I've heard alot of white people say exactly that about indigenous activists for as long as I can remember. The Blak Sovereign movement is angry and radical and doesn't really want Australia to continue the way it is, essentially. Just about every whitefella who works to improve indigenous lives and alot of blackfellas working with them do.

Anyway Albo is all about Albo, Scummo was all about Scummo, Tony Abbott was the same along with Malcolm Turnbull as well. They all white anted, abused people and gatekept their way to the top and they work hard to stay there.

What about Kevin?

 

[Val Keating]

This is the point I've been making though (and what I was saying last time Lidia Thorpe was discussed as an issue).

Part of the reason (in fact a big part) that so many Elders and activitists from the community she reports to represent disavow her is precisely because of how she actively gatekeeps/white-ants/abuses other people rising up in the space.

Lidia is about one thing above all else; Lidia.

She's a grifter, dude. She has not only put herself in charge of the Blak Sovereign movement (and pushed out many, many people who put in the hard yards for years in this space), but she works hard to ensure no one can unseat her from the throne of her own making.

You know that indigenous people of Australia don’t see themselves as one nation right? Of course she doesn’t represent them all.

Think of it more like Europe, there’s different languages, culture etc..

 

[Sphynx]

You know that indigenous people of Australia don’t see themselves as one nation right? Of course she doesn’t represent them all.

Think of it more like Europe, there’s different languages, culture etc..

Which makes the issue even more complicated.

So is the government expected to negotiate 250 different treaties in isolation, all with different terms and timelines?

How do they even garner this is what the majority want, or do they simply treat them all as seperate nations?

 

[Chadwiko]

You know that indigenous people of Australia don’t see themselves as one nation right? Of course she doesn’t represent them all.

Think of it more like Europe, there’s different languages, culture etc..

Extremely aware. Didn't say she did/was. That's specifically why I specified the Elders from her communities.

Have worked closely with ATSI communities pretty much my whole career, including the last few years working with the First People's Assembly here in Victoria.

 

[Val Keating]

Hahahaha literally a full year later and you still seem to have difficulty accepting what actually happened with that, despite me explaining it to you in plain English numerous times.

Hilarious.




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Oh really? Is that why it started? Hey do me a favour; remind me why I PM'd Val originally? I don't think I just PM'd him out of the blue... strange.

I'm sure it's at the tip of my memory here somewhere...

You literally did do that. You PM’d me to try and sway my opinion, as if I was some moron that couldn’t be swayed and couldn’t use my own brain, you didn’t have the conviction to do it in public so you PM’d me, and the kicker is you sunk even lower and doxxed him in the process.

 

[Val Keating]

Which makes the issue even more complicated.

So is the government expected to negotiate 250 different treaties in isolation, all with different terms and timelines?

How do they even garner this is what the majority want, or do they simply treat them all as seperate nations?

Good point. No idea

 

[Chadwiko]

So is the government expected to negotiate 250 different treaties in isolation, all with different terms and timelines?

How do they even garner this is what the majority want, or do they simply treat them all as seperate nations?

At the Commonwealth level, Treaty is... complicated.

At the State level, you setup and empower bodies such as the First People's Assembly with representatives from every major mob across the State. They do fantastic work, and the previous Chair Aunty Geraldine was an absolute pleasure to collaborate with. She's incredibly dedicated to achieving Treaty in Victoria.

And Lidia Thorpe abused her.

 

[Val Keating]

Extremely aware. Didn't say she did/was. That's specifically why I specified the Elders from her communities.

Have worked closely with ATSI communities pretty much my whole career, including the last few years working with the First People's Assembly here in Victoria.

So you’re saying that elders from her community aren’t happy with what she did? Be careful now, you’ve shown your real name

 

[Chadwiko]

and the kicker is you sunk even lower and doxxed him in the process.

Wasn't a doxxing - he's posted his full name and email address on BigFooty on his current account.

 

[Val Keating]

Wasn't a doxxing - he's posted his full name and email address on BigFooty on his current account.

Why can’t I see it if I click on his profile?

 

[Chadwiko]

Why can’t I see it if I click on his profile?

No, I mean he's posted it previously. It's not on his profile.

 

[Val Keating]

No, I mean he's posted it previously. It's not on his profile.

Where?

 

[travelli]

This is the point I've been making though (and what I was saying last time Lidia Thorpe was discussed as an issue).

Part of the reason (in fact a big part) that so many Elders and activitists from the community she reports to represent disavow her is precisely because of how she actively gatekeeps/white-ants/abuses other people rising up in the space.

Lidia is about one thing above all else; Lidia.

She's a grifter, dude. She has not only put herself in charge of the Blak Sovereign movement (and pushed out many, many people who put in the hard yards for years in this space), but she works hard to ensure no one can unseat her from the throne of her own making.

The experience of the urban indigenous person is quite different from the remote. The remote still can draw closer ties to land and culture.

I am not surprised if the urban mob are more messed up.

 

[ferball]

But what’s not complicated is why so many people want to leave war torn regions such as the Middle East where everyone just wants to kill everyone and instead come to Australia

The greatest country in the world

(no offence intended anti Australians)

Australia is basically a police state that pissed away whatever opportunities it had because the population are led around by the nose by neo-liberal arseholes who keep telling them the most vulnerable people in the world are gpoing to **** them over while those same neo-lib arseholes actually do.

If you had any real pride in your country you'd be pissed off that our politicians on both sides allow humungous mining companies with insane wealth to take our resources for **** all while those pollies line up million dollar pa jobs for when they leave parliament. That indigenous people have the worst outcomes on the planet by any metric in terms of quality of life in what's sposed to be the richest place on earth. That people get sent to jail for simply stopping traffic while trying to draw attention to the complete lack of action on a real threat to everyone's well being - climate change or that anyone in this country is homeless.

You'd be pissed that our constitution is a joke. That some dotard, inbred **** from another country is our head of state, that real wages have fallen for over a decade, that we don't give a **** about our flora and fauna or environment and that when the most desperate people in the world do whatever they can to come here and experience our famed freedom and "fair go" we lock them in concentration camps.

You'd be pissed off that a country with such big tickets on itself is so mean-spirited, narrow-minded and gutless.

 

[Chadwiko]

Where?

I have screenshots (needed them back when you/he accused me of doxxing, to defend myself).

But to be fair it looks like he's gone back and deleted the posts in question, which is his right.

So I won't share them.

 

[andana]

It must be easy to win an argument when you can just make stuff up

Please provide evidence Australia is no 1 in the world for domestic violence.

It’s 8th out of G20 and when you factor in poorer countries doesn’t look like it would crack the top 100.

Next

Indigenous rights……

Not sure what this means

I’ll overlook the over representation of domestic violence amongst the indigenous community (which may only be an issue for you when I white man bashes a woman) and say that I’m pretty comfortable in saying despite “indigenous rights” Australia is number 1.

“Australians don’t even appreciate the unique freedoms they have”

Well i at least appreciate what a great country we live in.

I can only assume you’re not Australian given your description of Australians as “they”. If you are I’d rework your sentence to

“Australians don’t even appreciate what a great country they live in”

You are in great company


Scott Morrison
30th Prime Minister of Australia (2018-2022}
4y

Australia really is the best country in the world to live.