Montagna's 80m deliberate out of bounds

[Squizz]

I'm still annoyed with that decision. The club should be lodging a WTF with Gieschen.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/out-of-bounds-free-under-fire/story-e6frf9jf-1226043497183

"That is the world record for the longest deliberate our game has ever seen."

This is how Hawthorn legend Dermott Brereton described a deliberate out-of-bounds free kick paid against St Kilda's Leigh Montagna on Thursday night.

The ball bounced about 5m from the opposite corner of the centre square and another four times before crossing the boundary line some 80m from where he took his kick.

His supposed indiscretion was punished further when on their next possession the Brisbane Lions kicked a goal through Mitch Clark to draw within three points.

AFL officials were unavailable for comment, but this year's league guidelines state the umpires have been instructed by the laws committee to be much stricter with deliberate out-of-bounds free kicks.

A forum on website Big Footy titled "Montagna Kicks The Ball 80 Metres" was established three minutes after the free kick was paid.

Even Lions coach Michael Voss could not believe the decision. He was pictured laughing after the free kick was awarded to his side.

 

[Kildonan]

Umpires make mistakes.

There is some concern that this decision turns out to be the correct interpretation of the rule (as the deliberate OOB rule has been highlighted for more strict interpretation).

Montagna is not our best kick. His 58% disposal efficiency for the night attests to that.

The ground was very slippery - it was like wet weather play - and the execution of everyone's kicking skills were more ordinary than usual.

Montagna had no-one free at all to kick to so he just threw the ball on his boot and aimed it at an open area across field. It first bounced some 20 metres inside the boundary and then changed direction several times to just roll over the line.

What was Montagna supposed to do? Just stand there and let the Lions players tackle him and get pinged for holding the ball?

It was an unbelievably bad decision and that highlights the flaws in the way our football is umpired.

There are too many arbitrary decisions made by umpires concerning the intent of the player. We need to take these sort of decisions out of the hands of the umpires.

I'm not an advocate for making many rules changes, but I do believe we are asking for trouble when we give the umpires license to decide what the players' intent is.

Whatever rule changes we have in the future - please let them be ones where the arbitrary intent decisions are taken away from those who would try and control our game by whatever means.

 

[HoldenMCaulfield]

But the decision was defended at the time by 1990 Collingwood premiership captain Tony Shaw.

"You don't know the rule if you reckon that's a disgrace," Shaw said in commentary on 3AW.

"There were three Brisbane Lions there running and he had no St Kilda player (near the ball).

"You don't know the rule if you don't know that was intentional."

It may be true that there was no St Kilda player in sight and there may have been three Brisbane players closest to the ball when it eventually went over the line. In fact, I don't think that Montagna himself will deny that he did not intend to kick it to another St Kilda player.

But (at least according to my understand of the rule) that doesn't matter. A free kick is to be awarded if a player deliberately kicks or carries the ball out of bounds. I don't think that a free kick is to be paid just because the ball is kicked into an area without a player from the same team in the area.

Montagna is a very good player. But to say that he is able to deliberately kick the ball such that it bounces a good 25m from the line, take several bounces in several directions and then dribble over the line 80m from where he kicks it ... is a disgrace !

 

[StFly]

15.6.1

a free kick shall be awarded against a player who:

• kicks the football out of bounds on the full;
• in the act of bringing the football back into play after
  a behind has been scored, kicks the football over the
  boundary line without the football first being touched
  by another player;
• intentionally kicks, handballs or forces the football over
  the boundary line without the football being touched by
  another player;
• having taken the football over the boundary line, fails to
  immediately hand the football to the boundary umpire or
  drop the football directly to the ground;
• touches the football after the boundary umpire has
  signalled that the football is out of bounds, except for a
  player who has carried the football over the boundary
  line under this law 15.6.1 or a player awarded a free
  kick under these laws; or
• hits the football out of bounds on the full from a
  boundary throw or a field bounce or throw by a
  field umpire.

Point 3 would the inferred law applied;

intentionally kicks, handballs or forces the football over
the boundary line without the football being touched by
another player;

Highlighted the 2 contentious interpretations in that that Joeys kick was an obvious kick to space to alleviate pressure and the subsequent landing of the ball and amount of distance traveled to then reach the line backs up that intentional aiming for the line could not be determined. However, at the same time the ball was not touched by any other player before it went out.

As such, there's ultimately 2 ways this can go;

1) The decision was godawful and ridiculous.
2) Every kick irregardless of where it was taken from or where it lands, if it goes out of bounds and everyone stands and watches it happen, will be deemed as deliberate.

These are the 2 extreme implications of the rule subsection, leading me to be of the opinion that, like everyone else who've weighed in on the decision, says it's godawful and ridiculous.

I don't blame the ump though, rules committee make up & write some atrocious rules to then be applied.

edit

It may be true that there was no St Kilda player in sight and there may have been three Brisbane players closest to the ball when it eventually went over the line. In fact, I don't think that Montagna himself will deny that he did not intend to kick it a St Kilda player.

Actually replays being what they are had a Saints player in pursuit catching the Brisbane players heading towards the ball, leading me to end this post with Tony Shaw is an arrogant waste of oxygen who should shut that fat sucking vortex in his face.

 

[Squizz]

I actually have no problem with the rule.

But the umpires (who are in the minority) that think they can read minds have to be set straight.

Why not show some initiative and say it was an error?

Or is the AFL saying they believe Montagna was good enough to kick the ball 55m, have it bounce on its point sideways despite greasy conditions, and roll a further 25m and make it over the line just before a Brisbane player got there?

We need the rule for the obvious ones.

We don't need amateur rocket surgeons and brain scientists.

 

[Squizz]

I guess you guys have worked out why I left that f-wit's comments out of the OP. Can't believe the flog has so little shame as to put his bias on display. But then we are dealing with the filth propaganda machine. It never sleeps.

 

[SA1NTER]

Holy crap, they even mention BigFooty! We are famous guys.

 

[SA1NTER]

I have to agree with the umps on that call, only because Joey's body was turned slightly to his right towards the boundary line.

Before they called it I thought to myself "oh no I bet they'll pay that". And I was right, probably because of the lack of Saints players in proximity to the actual ball, as opposed to a few more Lions players.

 

[Squizz]

Well you are smarter than me, as I did not see it coming.

He was kicking for space, and it was a complete fluke that it went over the line.

 

[SA1NTER]

Well you are smarter than me, as I did not see it coming.

He was kicking for space, and it was a complete fluke that it went over the line.

I just had this funny feeling, and that sort of stuff almost always happens to us.

I do agree that it was pretty good to travel that far, the ball simply bounce in the exact direction towards the boundary line.

 

[SamFisher25]

didn't have a massive problem with it personally although i can see how some would.

shouldn't really have been a free yet it was still a 60/30/10 go.
what i hate are the blatent '100% wrong' ones.

have seen some shocking frees against us over the past 18 months and nearly all of them surround tackling.

 

[Squizz]

But with a tackle, an umpire can be blindsided or make the decision whilst running/rushing to position.

With the deliberate, there was plenty of time to watch and consider the right decision.

No-one will ever convince me that Montagna was kicking with intent for the line, as opposed to away from the Brisbane players who were waiting to take an uncontested mark. And there was enough pressure - how much would you have frothed if he'd been run down 50m out directly in front?

It was _ucking rubbish, and it seems (from the main board) that the vast majority think the same thing. Other than some fool who said the umpires are punishing us for our game style.

 

[SamFisher25]

But with a tackle, an umpire can be blindsided or make the decision whilst running/rushing to position.

With the deliberate, there was plenty of time to watch and consider the right decision.

No-one will ever convince me that Montagna was kicking with intent for the line, as opposed to away from the Brisbane players who were waiting to take an uncontested mark. And there was enough pressure - how much would you have frothed if he'd been run down 50m out directly in front?

It was _ucking rubbish, and it seems (from the main board) that the vast majority think the same thing. Other than some fool who said the umpires are punishing us for our game style.

yah fair point

 

[Look2Me4Guidance]

Well you are smarter than me, as I did not see it coming.

He was kicking for space, and it was a complete fluke that it went over the line.

I'm with you Squizz.

What would have happened if Ash McGrath was about to collect the kick and then it took a funny bounce and then went over the line. Would that be deliberate?

If I try and handball in front of myself to clear some space from an opponent and I hit it too hard and it goes out of bounds, is that deliberate as well?

The rule is not the problem but the enforcing of it is nothing short of ridiculous. Possibly the most inconsistently applied rule in the game today.

 

[Plugger35]

Still can't believe that decision, the fact that it has got so much coverage in the media just shows how bad it was. One of the worst decisions I've ever seen and it could have cost us the game given that Brisbane got a couple of goals straight after it.

Don't know what Tony Shaw is thinking by trying to justify it. I bet if it happened to Collingwood he would be up in arms and screaming blue murder.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

While the umpires should consider whether other StKilda players were near the ball to try to judge intent.
In this case it is clear that the ball was not aimed at the boandary and was very unlikely to go over the boundary. This should outweigh the previous consideration.
Do the players now have to worry about accidental deliberate out of bounds?
Are the AFL trying to encourage backwards kicking and possesion football.

 

[Squizz]

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/sticks-is-missing-you-josh/story-e6frf9jf-1226043996742

Leigh Montagna sends the ball 75m forward and gets pinged for deliberate after the ball rolls out.

Then a minute before the three-quarter-time siren yesterday, Stephen Salopek runs on to a long kick from teammate Alipate Carlile, gathers about two metres inside the boundary and simply runs over the line.

Salopek clearly has time to check himself, swing back into play and send it forward. Yet no whistle.

It wasn't as if momentum took him over the line. It was deliberate, ump - but then again, if you are going to penalise Montagna, just about everything is.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/sticks-is-missing-you-josh/story-e6frf9jf-1226043996742

Leigh Montagna sends the ball 75m forward and gets pinged for deliberate after the ball rolls out.

Then a minute before the three-quarter-time siren yesterday, Stephen Salopek runs on to a long kick from teammate Alipate Carlile, gathers about two metres inside the boundary and simply runs over the line.

Salopek clearly has time to check himself, swing back into play and send it forward. Yet no whistle.

It wasn't as if momentum took him over the line. It was deliberate, ump - but then again, if you are going to penalise Montagna, just about everything is.

Next week Leigh will kick it to an opponent, who will kick it out of bounds. Leigh will be penalised because it was inevitable the opponent would kick it out and was therefore deliberate.

 

[WASaintsFan08]

sitting almost directly infront of where the ball bounced out.. there was no way that was deliberate... it was a kick to open space to create a footrace contest.....

rubbish decision.... but we won the game who cares

 

[goodie23]

Joey may have been hoping it would reach the boundary line, but when dealing with that kind of distance it was chance more than intention that saw it go over. Dumb to penalise for the bounce of the ball, let alone many, many bounces.

 

[Kildonan]

There is some concern that this decision turns out to be the correct interpretation of the rule (as the deliberate OOB rule has been highlighted for more strict interpretation).

Forgive me for quoting myself, but Gieshen has just validated my fears..

Out-of-bounds decision against Leigh Montagna gets thumbs up
Matt Windley
From: Herald Sun
April 28, 2011 12:00AM

AFL umpires boss Jeff Gieschen has given the all clear to the deliberate out of bounds free kick paid against St Kilda's Leigh Montagna last week.
Montagna kicked the ball from just inside the centre square, landing it some 50m down the ground before it bounced right and trickled out of bounds.

So I reiterate my rant...

It was an unbelievably bad decision and that highlights the flaws in the way our football is umpired.

There are too many arbitrary decisions made by umpires concerning the intent of the player. We need to take these sort of decisions out of the hands of the umpires.

I'm not an advocate for making many rules changes, but I do believe we are asking for trouble when we give the umpires license to decide what the players' intent is.

Whatever rule changes we have in the future - please let them be ones where the arbitrary intent decisions are taken away from those who would try and control our game by whatever means.

 

[sainter]

Spot on Kildonan. The game is fast enough and hard enough to interpret as it is without expecting the umpire to second guess the intentions of the players.

We are talking about a ball that flew 50 metres in the air, landed 5 metres outside the centre square and bounced at right angles until it crossed the line.

What Gieschen is saying by justifying that decision is that if you have your players behind the ball and kick it long you have to hope it stays in otherwise you'll be pinged.

Totally against the spirit of the game.

 

[jabbathehut]

i saw it happening, had enough time while the kick was still in the air to think to myself, he should not but i think he might get pinged for this, then whilst the ball was bouncing at right angles i had a vision of the giesch sprouting to anyone who would listen 'you can clearly see that he has the ball in the off break position so player montagna was clearly attempting to place the ball out of bounds at all costs. Due to these circumstances random umpire was clearly correct in his decision to award a freekick.'
i wish i could claim oracle status though it was sadly quite a predictable outcome

 

[Squizz]

Didn't Gieschen also confirm the Blair free against Carlton as correct? That was rubbish too. I would say that he's past his use by date, but I wasn't sure how a failed coach managed to fall into the job in the first place. Forget "Unleash the Giesch" - just "Release the Giesch".

 

[dg102]

Gieshen should be sacked and the whole umpiring department should come under a full 360 review at the end of the year.

The AFL don't control and govern the umpiring department so they have no one to answer to. Giesh comes out every week and PROTECTS the wrong decisions of umpires and no one says a damn thing and that is just wrong.

Im a pretty experienced AFL punter and its not small business any more. its a billion dollar industry and you can't have umpires constantly making the wrong decisions that effect scoring out comes. Some decisions are so bad I'd go so far as to say "CORRUPT" and when Giesh supports these wrong decisions then he can be seen as being at the head of corruption.
He should be sacked. Umpiring should be a full time position. The AFL should have a department that monitors, controls and governs umpiring. Instead they just stick thier head in the sand.