Research Correcting historical match starting times

[the croucher]

In the last day or two I've been checking "official match starting times" from randomly selected years, especially finals, and have noticed a high percentage appear to need amending.
Presumably when stats lists and match details were first put together the old AFL stats site was utilised ? For example, many Grand Finals have start time shown as 2.50 pm, but I've not come across one where that time is correct.

Rhett rbartlett, I recall you beginning a project on start times and loading a post about it in early years of this thread. Have you had a chance to push on with that ?

 

[rbartlett]

In the last day or two I've been checking "official match starting times" from randomly selected years, especially finals, and have noticed a high percentage appear to need amending.
Presumably when stats lists and match details were first put together the old AFL stats site was utilised ? For example, many Grand Finals have start time shown as 2.50 pm, but I've not come across one where that time is correct.

Rhett rbartlett, I recall you beginning a project on start times and loading a post about it in early years of this thread. Have you had a chance to push on with that ?

Croucher I didnt go any further with that idea , though there was a slight correspondence with Stephen Rodgers in 2020 where we spoke about some of the examples.

I think its best this group tries and puts the correct GF times in stone once and for all. (Then can worry about other finals later). SO I dont know if you wanna do that as one post and you just keep editing it when we find the info, or if its a separate thread. Ill leave that up to you.

Rodgers accepts that AFLTables finals start times are pretty much incorrect .

 

[the croucher]

Croucher I didnt go any further with that idea , though there was a slight correspondence with Stephen Rodgers in 2020 where we spoke about some of the examples.

I think its best this group tries and puts the correct GF times in stone once and for all. (Then can worry about other finals later). SO I dont know if you wanna do that as one post and you just keep editing it when we find the info, or if its a separate thread. Ill leave that up to you.

Rodgers accepts that AFLTables finals start times are pretty much incorrect .

Thanks Rhett. The AF website also uses virtually the same information as Tables, so both will need amending.

I think it might be as well to have the GF updates in this same thread as you suggest and edit a single post as new information for each match comes to light.

 

[the croucher]

VFL/AFL Grand Final start times

1898 - Fitzroy v Essendon -
AFL Tables and AustralianFootball sites show start time as 2.50pm. Appears to be incorrect.

The Argus issue of Monday 26 Sept includes article about a Fitzroy supporter having fatal accident on a building site on morning of match. "The time of the accident was a quarter to twelve. In the pocket-book of the deceased was a list of the matches which the Fitzroy Club had played during the season..." "..he met his death just three hours and a quarter before the play began."

No other detail about a precise time found so far, but as matches that season were all due to begin at 3.00 pm, the time reference in the accident report supports that start time being the one planned for.

Summary: 1898 Grand Final start time to be changed from 2.50 to 3.00

 

[Gibbsy]

Thanks Rhett. The AF website also uses virtually the same information as Tables, so both will need amending.

I think it might be as well to have the GF updates in this same thread as you suggest and edit a single post as new information for each match comes to light.

I am going to split this start-time stuff out into its own thread so it doesn't get lost in this 'mega thread' of sorts. It certainly is worthy of that importance!

Great start the croucher

 

[the croucher]

I am going to split this start-time stuff out into its own thread so it doesn't get lost in this 'mega thread' of sorts. It certainly is worthy of that importance!

Great start the croucher

Thanks Gibbsy !

Wasn't sure whether to start new thread or not, so glad to have support for separating it out on its own.

 

[the croucher]

1897 home-and-away roster match on 26 June
Rnd 8 - Carlton v Fitzroy, due to start at 3.00. Did not begin until 3.30

The Leader issue of 3 July
“The match not starting until 3.30, very little of the play in the last quarter could be seen distinctly”

FOOTBALL GOSSIP. - ANOTHER WET SATURDAY. GEELONG BEAT ESSENDON. - Leader (Melbourne, Vic. : 1862 - 1918, 1935) - 3 Jul 1897

The weather last Saturday was quite as unpleasant and unfavorable for football as that of a week before, and unfortunately another good afternoon's programme was spoilt by the rain, ...

trove.nla.gov.au

The Age issue of 28 June
“In the drizzling rain on Saturday with no press box it was impossible to clearly discern individuals, especially as partial darkness fell long before the match was over, owing to play not having started until 3.30.”

THE FOOTBALL SEASON. - ANOTHER WET SATURDAY. THREE LEADING CLUBS LEVEL. - The Age (Melbourne, Vic. : 1854 - 1954) - 28 Jun 1897

Last Saturday was even less favorable to football than the previous one, and it was again unfortunate that on such an unpleasant day the programme should have included two of the best and ...

trove.nla.gov.au

Summary: 1897 Round 8 Carlton v Fitzroy, start time 3.00 pm to be replaced by 3.30 pm

 

[the croucher]

1897 home-and-away roster match on 19 June
Rnd 7 - Geelong v Fitzroy, due to start at 3.00. Did not begin until 3.45

The Leader issue of 26 June
“..the match, which did not start until 3.45, finishing in the dark”

FOOTBALL GOSSIP. - THE LEAGUE MATCHES. MELBOURNE BEAT COLLINGWOOD. WELL PLAYED IN THE MUD. - Leader (Melbourne, Vic. : 1862 - 1918, 1935) - 26 Jun 1897

It would not surprise me if my friend "Outrigger" protested against me this week on the grounds that last Saturday's football matches should be treated under the head of ...

trove.nla.gov.au

Geelong Advertiser issue of 21 June
“The game was not commenced until 3.44 p.m., owing to the special train bringing the Fitzroy team to Geelong having been detained for 45 minutes at Laverton..” Later the match report noted that the game finished shortly before six o’clock.

FITZRoy V. GEELONG. - Geelong Advertiser (Vic. : 1859 - 1929) - 21 Jun 1897

trove.nla.gov.au

Summary: 1897 Round 7 Geelong v Fitzroy, start time 3.00 pm to be replaced by 3.45 pm

 

[rbartlett]

the croucher Gibbsy
Yep, perfect idea to put it as a separate thread.
Should we try and attempt to go in a chronological order, or would you rather we just post whatever we find form any decade/year

 

[rbartlett]

Summary: All 4 finals matches in 1928 start time was 2.45pm instead of 2.30 as per AFLTables

 

[the croucher]

the croucher Gibbsy
Yep, perfect idea to put it as a separate thread.
Should we try and attempt to go in a chronological order, or would you rather we just post whatever we find form any decade/year

I think posting whatever is found, no matter what year it is.
Will work out a "progress report of project" document and share the periodic updates.

 

[the croucher]

Summary: All 4 finals matches in 1928 start time was 2.45pm instead of 2.30 as per AFLTables View attachment 1981983View attachment 1981979View attachment 1981984View attachment 1981986

Don't know how precise we want to be ...in 5 minute increments only ?
The Collingwood v Richmond Grand Final was due [as per Rhett's copy of the ad] to start at 2.45.
However, The Herald match report of 29 September issue states "at 2.52 p.m. they were off" ...
does the time get listed to the minute, or shown as 2.50pm ?

COLLINGWOOD LEAD THROUGHOUT - Stirring Test in League Final COVENTRY IN SCORING VEIN - The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 - 1954) - 29 Sep 1928

At M.C.C. ground Attendance, 50.026. Gate talking: £2533. Good football weather prevailed for the League final between ...

trove.nla.gov.au

 

[Gibbsy]

Don't know how precise we want to be ...in 5 minute increments only ?
The Collingwood v Richmond Grand Final was due [as per Rhett's copy of the ad] to start at 2.45.
However, The Herald match report of 29 September issue states "at 2.52 p.m. they were off" ...
does the time get listed to the minute, or shown as 2.50pm ?

COLLINGWOOD LEAD THROUGHOUT - Stirring Test in League Final COVENTRY IN SCORING VEIN - The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 - 1954) - 29 Sep 1928

At M.C.C. ground Attendance, 50.026. Gate talking: £2533. Good football weather prevailed for the League final between ...

trove.nla.gov.au

I think 5-minute increments is the way to go. Otherwise you could argue that start times of matches throughout the last round of AFL were all 1 or 2 minutes after their listed start time (due to the minutes' silence for violence against women)

 

[rbartlett]

Don't know how precise we want to be ...in 5 minute increments only ?
The Collingwood v Richmond Grand Final was due [as per Rhett's copy of the ad] to start at 2.45.
However, The Herald match report of 29 September issue states "at 2.52 p.m. they were off" ...
does the time get listed to the minute, or shown as 2.50pm ?

COLLINGWOOD LEAD THROUGHOUT - Stirring Test in League Final COVENTRY IN SCORING VEIN - The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 - 1954) - 29 Sep 1928

At M.C.C. ground Attendance, 50.026. Gate talking: £2533. Good football weather prevailed for the League final between ...

trove.nla.gov.au

I take the other side of this argument actually.
Particularly for Grand Final's - if the 2.45pm match started at 2.52pm then I say we put 2.52pm
(Cause I have this fear that wayyyy down the track someone will re-find the 2.45pm start time advertisment and it will get changed back to that.

I take Gibbsy's point though about recent rounds which probably were 1-2 minutes late.
I didnt even focus on the start time of the matches - were the new start times documented anywhere for the last Round. I guess not.

I suppose what I'm saying is for Grand Finals we should be precise.
Perhaps for 'Rounds' where a pre-match ceremony makes it a minute or so late, just let it slide?

What's everyone elses thoughts

 

[rbartlett]

Summary: The scheduled start time of 1936 First Semi Final, Second Semi Final, and the Preliminary Final seems to be 2.45 , not 2.30 as per AFLTables

 

[Gibbke]

I'm interested in what this does to the classification of day, twilight and night games...

I call any match played before 3:20pm a day game, between 3:20 and 5:00 a twilight game, and after that a night match. If it's before midday, it's a morning match, even if it started at 11:59! The distinguishing factor has always been the yellow ball, as the introduction of lights nearly fifty years ago meant that many 2pm starters with a red ball often finished with lights in various stadiums, but alternatively a February game starting late afternoon might not have them at all but they still used a yellow ball, finishing in sunshine...

So a 3:45pm start finishing in the black with no lighting...? And one day, I'm tipping they'll play all senior footy matches with a yellow ball...so what do you think...?

 

[clarkoscluster]

I'm interested in what this does to the classification of day, twilight and night games...

I call any match played before 3:20pm a day game, between 3:20 and 5:00 a twilight game, and after that a night match. If it's before midday, it's a morning match, even if it started at 11:59! The distinguishing factor has always been the yellow ball, as the introduction of lights nearly fifty years ago meant that many 2pm starters with a red ball often finished with lights in various stadiums, but alternatively a February game starting late afternoon might not have them at all but they still used a yellow ball, finishing in sunshine...

So a 3:45pm start finishing in the black with no lighting...? And one day, I'm tipping they'll play all senior footy matches with a yellow ball...so what do you think...?

I don’t post often on BigFooty or stats threads but this topic interests me. It seems as though the AFL adopt a yellow footy policy for any start time from 3pm onwards, and as you said, in daylight savings, this needlessly results in matches being played with a yellow footy in glorious sunshine.

The way I categorise it personally, and have done for a long time, is that any match that finishes before the noted sunset time in the location of the match being played, is a day game, regardless of colour footy used (except for Marvel matches under a roof which I believe should always be categorised as ‘night’ matches due to the complete absence of natural light). For any match finishing after sunset, I would personally consider a night match. This then limits the categorisation to two outcomes (day/night) instead of the four you listed (morning/day/twilight/night).

Using today in Melbourne as an example - the sunset time is listed as 5.24pm. Using an average game length of 2.5 hours, even a 3pm match would be night as it would be scheduled to finish at 5.30pm, whereas a 2.50pm match would not. In summer where the sunset time may be 8pm, the same time slot would be considered day (and imo a red footy should be used).

In the 1897 examples, I would personally categorise them as night matches - there must have been some sort of dim lighting (maybe lighting around the terraces) that allowed enough lighting on the field to at least somewhat see and they clearly must have finished after dark. The colour of the footy shouldn’t be relevant here imo.

It always irks me when a yellow footy is used pre daylight savings in clear daytime time slots when it’s so easy to do a quick google search and find the conditions. I recall a game at GMHBA Stadium pre lighting about 15 years ago where a yellow footy was used for a 1.10pm sunday start (I think Cats v Power) due to dim lighting conditions alone. I’m glad that hasn’t been adopted since (although all venues do have lights now) and that match should definitely still be considered a day match if it otherwise isn’t.

I think I’ve gone off on a tangent here and maybe a topic for another thread, but I’m certain the afl keeps records on day v night and I don’t believe they are factually accurate.

 

[Gibbke]

The AFL stats book they release every year designates games as day, twilight and night, or at least they used to twenty years ago when twilight was much rarer. They had them in the head to head stats...seemed like they had an official stance...

 

[the croucher]

1899 16 September Grand Final - Fitzroy v South Melbourne
AFL Tables & AustralianFootball have 2.50 as start time, I think it should be 3.00

The Argus issue of 16 Sept carries an ad for match ticket prices and venue with start time shown as 3 p.m.

FOOTBALL. - GREAT FINAL MATCH FOR PREMIERSHIP. FITZROY V. SOUTH MELBOURNE. ST. KILDA CRICKET-GROUND, TO-DAY, 3 p.m. - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 16 Sep 1899

Ground, 6d.; stand 1/ extra, Come early. BRING EXACT CHANGE. G. H. INSKIP, Hon, Sec. St. K.C.C. ...

trove.nla.gov.au

The Sportsman issue of 19 Sept “Just before three o’clock some of the South Melbourne committee went into the Fitzroy dressing-room, and asked if the Fitzroy people were agreeable to a postponement; but the players of the latter team were not on, and the game was entered into.”

FOOTBALL - END OF THE SEASON. Fitzroy Premiers. - Sportsman (Melbourne, Vic. : 1882 - 1904) - 19 Sep 1899

1899 Gone into the past, So far as football is concerned. The season closed on Saturday, ...

trove.nla.gov.au

No article I've read in various other papers refers to any delay in starting the match so...

Summary: 1899 Grand Final start time - remove 2.50 and replace with 3.00

 

[the croucher]

1900 22 September Grand Final - Melbourne v Fitzroy
AFL Tables and AustralianFootball have 2.50 as start time, I think it should be 3.00

The Herald issue of Friday 21 September carried an advertisement for the match including time ref “Football at 3.”

Advertising - The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 - 1954) - 21 Sep 1900

trove.nla.gov.au

The Argus issue of Saturday 22 September had a small item about the match that day which included “..it is announced that the football match will start punctually at 3 o’clock.”

FOOTBALL. - THE FINAL MATCHES, FITZROY V. MELBOURNE. - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 22 Sep 1900

The final match for the premiership of the league clubs will be played on the East Melbourne Cricket-ground this afternoon. Fitzroy and Melbourne are the competing teams, and the contest ...

trove.nla.gov.au

No reference to any delay being found in other papers..

Summary: 1900 Grand Final start time - remove 2.50 and replace with 3.00

 

[the croucher]

1901 7 September Grand Final - Essendon v Collingwood
AFL Tables and AustralianFootball have start as 2.50, I think time should be 3.05

The Argus issue of Saturday 7 September has an advertisement in the Amusements section for the match which includes “..Baseball Match, Victoria v New South Wales, 1 to 3, prior to Football Match.”

Advertising - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 7 Sep 1901

trove.nla.gov.au

The Sportsman issue of Tuesday 10 September has a match report which includes “..The crowd was anxious for the start, and just after 3 o’clock a mighty roar went up in welcoming the players, Essendon were the first out, and were quickly followed by Collingwood.”

THE SEASON ENDED. - The Final Fight. Essendon Beats Collingwood And Wins the Premiership. - Sportsman (Melbourne, Vic. : 1882 - 1904) - 10 Sep 1901

Time The old man with the seythe has cut down another football season and Saturday saw the great final light for the honors of the year as ...

trove.nla.gov.au

Summary: 1901 Grand Final start time - remove 2.50 and replace with 3.05

 

[the croucher]

1902 20 September Grand Final - Collingwood v Essendon
AFL Tables and AustralianFootball have start as 2.50, I think time should be 3.00

The Herald issue of Friday 19 September carried an advertisement which included
“Grand Final Match / Collingwood v Essendon /… Game starts at 3.”

Advertising - The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 - 1954) - 19 Sep 1902

trove.nla.gov.au

The Age issue of Saturday 20 Sept 1902 carried an article which included “Football / The Final Match…An enormous attendance is certain, and although the seating accommodation is considerable, visitors will do well to arrive well in advance of the hour of starting (3 o’clock).”

FOOTBALL. - CLOSE OF THE SEASON. THE FINAL MATCH. - The Age (Melbourne, Vic. : 1854 - 1954) - 20 Sep 1902

The football season will be brought to a close to-day, when Collingwood and Essendon play off for the premiership on the Melbourne cricket ground. An enormous attendance is certain, and ...

trove.nla.gov.au

None of the post match reports I have seen comment on any delay, so..

Summary: 1902 Grand Final start time - remove 2.50 and replace with 3.00

 

[the croucher]

1903 12 September Grand Final Collingwood v Fitzroy
AFL Tables and AustralianFootball have start as 2.50, I think it should be 3.00

The Herald issue of Friday 11 September carries an advertisement in the Amusements section which includes “Grand Final Match / ..Gates Open at 1.30. Game at 3.”

Advertising - The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 - 1954) - 11 Sep 1903

trove.nla.gov.au

The Age issue of Saturday 12 September also carries the same advertisement in the Amusements section which includes “Grand Final Match / ..Gates Open at 1.30. Game at 3.”

Advertising - The Age (Melbourne, Vic. : 1854 - 1954) - 12 Sep 1903

trove.nla.gov.au

No match reports that I have seen comment on any delay so..

Summary: 1903 Grand Final start time - remove 2.50 and replace with 3.00

 

[the croucher]

1904 17 September Grand Final - Fitzroy v Carlton
AFL Tables and AustralianFootball have start as 2.50, I think it should be 3.15

The Age issue of Friday 16 Sept news item “Victoria v New South Wales schools match to start at 2 “..and the final premiership match between Fitzroy and Carlton at a quarter-past 3.”

FOOTBALL. - VICTORIAN FOOTBALL LEAGUE. - The Age (Melbourne, Vic. : 1854 - 1954) - 16 Sep 1904

The following umpires have been appointed for to-morrow's matches on the Melbourne cricket ground:--Victoria v. New South Wales (schools match): Field, D'Helin; goal, Lucas and Franks. ...

trove.nla.gov.au

The Argus issue of Sat 17 Sept ad towards bottom of column five “Football Football Victorian Football League …At 3.15 O’clock, Fitzroy v Carlton.Final for Premiership 1904.”

Advertising - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 17 Sep 1904

trove.nla.gov.au

None of the match reports I've read comment on any delay so..

Summary: 1904 Grand Final start time - remove 2.50 and replace with 3.15

 

[the croucher]

1906 22 September Grand Final - Carlton v Fitzroy
AFL Tables and AustralianFootball have start as 2.50, I think it should be 3.00

The Herald issue of Friday 21 September carries an advertisement which includes “..Victorian Football League / Final Match Season 1906 / ..Carlton v Fitzroy / At Melbourne Cricket Ground, at 3.”

Advertising - The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 - 1954) - 21 Sep 1906

trove.nla.gov.au

That same issue includes in another column on the same page an article about the events at MCG
“..At 3 o’clock punctually the big guns will open fire in the great battle of the season.”

WORLD OF SPORT - FOOTBALL. LEAGUE FINAL MATCH CARLTON MEET FITZROY. - The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 - 1954) - 21 Sep 1906

The end. It comes to-morrow. With the League learns Carlton and Fitzroy play off. ...

trove.nla.gov.au

No match reports that I have seen comment on any delay so..

Summary: 1906 Grand Final start time, remove 2.50 and replace with 3.00