Roast Inner Feral Fan Unleashed - Warning - Unbridled, passionate, and objectionable opinions within

Remove this Banner Ad

Whose fault is it that we didn't have a lot of draft currency?

Trading first round picks for already 26 non-AA (at that point) half back flankers who would be in their 30s during our future premiership window is burning trade currency.

Trading first-round-picks for vanilla midfielders (albeit a very good footballer) who has already had serious soft tissue injuries before they get to the club burns trade currency.

Trading down in what was considered a top-loaded 2019 AFL Draft for two lower picks is burning trade currency.

3 consecutive years of trade currency that the club burnt.

Instead of continuing to build through the draft like a normal building organisation, the club became impatient, the highest selections that we've had between drafting Sam Walsh (1st in 2018) and Ollie Hollands (11th in 2022) are:

  • Brodie Kemp, 17 in 2019
  • Sam Philp, 20 in 2019
  • Corey Durdin, 37 in 2020
  • Jack Carroll, 41 in 2020
  • Jesse Motlop, 27 in 2021

WITHOUT making the finals once.

All of this before Voss even got to the club.

You want to talk about not having draft capital?

We pissed it away.

The damage in this period came entirely during Brad Lloyd's reign of terror as the "general manager of football," Agresta was list manager and subsequently national recruiting manager and after Nick Austin became list manager.


And that's not even hammering on Agresta's tremendous eye for talent in selecting Dow and O'Brien the year before this mess.

e: And no, this isn't revisionist history. Many here were angry about ponying up so much for Saad. Most were against trading down in 2019. Many were concerned with Cerra's injury history at the time. Most of us rationalized it and accepted it but as fans what else can we do?
Will give a more detailed response when I have time mate. You have gone excessively hard at Austin which I do take issue with. Less so Arli with Agresta with a longer tenure.

Serious question, we struggled to attract free agents for a very long time before grabbing Williams and Hewett. I was a voiceferous anti Saad for the price, but was absolutely all for Cerra. How much control do you think new boy Austin had over those decisions?

Answer SFA. Lloyd and Liddle had the reins and were trying to placate power brokers and supporters wanting to get some mature “stars” in to play beside the myriad of kids we had.
Art
Our current list management group has been trying to balance the list they (mostly Austin) inherited. Limited draft capital and lists of required types for the coaches. Misplaced priorities. We had no spare draft capital last period, and the majority on here wanted bloody Houston, (as did Voss) which was impossible. Austin held his ground. I have mixed feelings on the Jagga jostling exchanges and would probably have preferred two kids, the names of which are in our draft threads. Jagga wasn’t necessarily a mistake, particularly without hindsight. Make no mistake, give Voss the chance he will dull his speed in favour of contested traits. Lord has a rounded game(and was a great left field pick up) but Vossy deploys him as a defensive Plow horse, removing any offensive traits. His early pre season featured offensive running as a forward handballing link.

Is it List management’s fault Voss and team want to play a handful of lesser skilled smaller defensive role players rather than give a sniff to any offensively minded kids waiting in the wings. Moir in particular and White with more pace, who does the defensive running but can sniff a goal, as well as being a POD leftie. Evans did a couple of decent things, but such a conservative first SSP selection. Do you think Austin/Agresta had the selection? Or did they put candidates tall and small together for the coaches to select from?
 
Our current list management group has been trying to balance the list they (mostly Austin) inherited.
Inherited? Of the 45 players on the list, if I'm correct, 2 were pre SOS (Cripps and Doc), 11 were SOS's and 32 have been drafted/recruited by Austin.
The list therefore is mostly his and IMO has little depth and the talent falls away quickly after the 6 or 7 genuine stars.
 
Evans did a couple of decent things, but such a conservative first SSP selection. Do you think Austin/Agresta had the selection? Or did they put candidates tall and small together for the coaches to select from?
Evans was training with us all summer.....there is zero chance that Austin/Agresta were the driving force behind his selection in the SSP. He must have been doing something right to impress the coaching brains trust, although we've yet to see what they saw.
 

Log in to remove this ad.

Will give a more detailed response when I have time mate. You have gone excessively hard at Austin which I do take issue with. Less so Arli with Agresta with a longer tenure.

Serious question, we struggled to attract free agents for a very long time before grabbing Williams and Hewett. I was a voiceferous anti Saad for the price, but was absolutely all for Cerra. How much control do you think new boy Austin had over those decisions?

Answer SFA. Lloyd and Liddle had the reins and were trying to placate power brokers and supporters wanting to get some mature “stars” in to play beside the myriad of kids we had.
Art
Our current list management group has been trying to balance the list they (mostly Austin) inherited. Limited draft capital and lists of required types for the coaches. Misplaced priorities. We had no spare draft capital last period, and the majority on here wanted bloody Houston, (as did Voss) which was impossible. Austin held his ground. I have mixed feelings on the Jagga jostling exchanges and would probably have preferred two kids, the names of which are in our draft threads. Jagga wasn’t necessarily a mistake, particularly without hindsight. Make no mistake, give Voss the chance he will dull his speed in favour of contested traits. Lord has a rounded game(and was a great left field pick up) but Vossy deploys him as a defensive Plow horse, removing any offensive traits. His early pre season featured offensive running as a forward handballing link.

Is it List management’s fault Voss and team want to play a handful of lesser skilled smaller defensive role players rather than give a sniff to any offensively minded kids waiting in the wings. Moir in particular and White with more pace, who does the defensive running but can sniff a goal, as well as being a POD leftie. Evans did a couple of decent things, but such a conservative first SSP selection. Do you think Austin/Agresta had the selection? Or did they put candidates tall and small together for the coaches to select from?
While I respect your opinion on drafting as deeper than mine, it's been 5 seasons of his control of this list. While I can certainly appreciate the difficulties of his situation - whilst also acknowledging that the current losing streak has placed potentially undue negative scrutiny on the entire club - this list has been in his hands for long enough that we can begin to come to some conclusions about his management.

Painting him as having tied wrists isn't commensurate with any level of professional environment; the implication being, you either cannot assess any single person below either the director of football or the CEO as having any responsibility for the success/failure to do their role as their hands were tied and we therefore have a deeply unprofessional organisation that should at no point be trusted with self management anyway; or the club is professional and each pillar within it can be judged on the quality of their work relative to that pillar's performance.

And that might just be the longest sentence I've ever written.
 
It's my fault. A few years ago I picked up a framed drawing of Bruce Doull and hung it in my living room to my wifes annoyance. Last July we started painting the house and Bruce came down and didnt go back up. I saw his picture tucked away in the cupboard and was going to take him out to the shed when I asked my wife when did we paint the living room? It was the first week of july, we played GWS that week. I am so sorry, Bruce is back up on the wall, my wife is both sympathetic and concerned for my mental well being.
 
Thank god we have this thread to unleash!!

I was starting to worry that our “supporters” were bottling their disappointment.

Great to see some healthy constructive criticism here - it’s just a sickening CFC love-fest everywhere else.

I for one want everyone sacked, traded, tarred & feathered, paraded down Bourke St - bound & gagged so we can all vent by throwing some (currently very expensive) vegetables at them.
 
Evans did a couple of decent things, but such a conservative first SSP selection. Do you think Austin/Agresta had the selection? Or did they put candidates tall and small together for the coaches to select from?

The blame on this one has to go on a significant case of over correction based on Austin and Agresta agreeing to terms with Durdin long before he'd proven worthy for a contract re-signing.

The sad thing is Owies wouldn't have taken much more than what they gave Durds but Durdin re-signing ended up squeezing him out.

You know how I feel about Frank and my connection there. He's not up to the standard but will absolutely bust a gut to get the best out of himself. It shouldn't always be the case but sometimes having the most professional mindset possible is enough to get you over the line.

Serious question, we struggled to attract free agents for a very long time before grabbing Williams and Hewett. I was a voiceferous anti Saad for the price, but was absolutely all for Cerra. How much control do you think new boy Austin had over those decisions?

Answer SFA.

Both pushed by Agresta and signed off by Austin.

They've been working in duo for years. When I criticize Austin I criticize Agresta. It's unfair to criticize Agresta at this stage without criticizing Austin.

This is our list:

Pre-Silvagni Era (first season at Carlton - Player)

2014 - Sam Docherty (AA)
2014 - Patrick Cripps (AA, Brownlows)

Silvagni Era

2016 - Jacob Weitering (AA)
2016 - Harry McKay (AA, Coleman)
2016 - Charlie Curnow (AA, Colemans)
2016 - Jack Silvagni
2018 - Tom De Koning
2018 - Mitch McGovern

Still Silvagni Era (Mick Agresta joins Carlton in February 2018, which of the two had the sway in the draft and trade period of 2019 when SOS was clearly being pushed out?)

2019 - Nic Newman
2019 - Sam Walsh (AA)
2019 - Matt Cottrell
2020 - Marc Pittonet
2020 - Brodie Kemp

Austin & Agresta Era

2021 - Zac Williams
2021 - Lachie Fogarty
2021 - Adam Saad (AA)
2021 - Corey Durdin
2021 - Jordan Boyd
2022 - George Hewett
2022 - Adam Cerra
2022 - Lewis Young
2022 - Jesse Motlop
2023 - Blake Acres
2023 - Oliver Hollands
2023 - Lachie Cowan
2023 - Jaxon Binns
2022 - Harry Lemmey
2023 - Hudson O'Keeffe
2023 - Alex Cincotta
2024 - Rob Monahan
2024 - Elijah Hollands
2024 - Orazio Fantasia
2024 - Ashton Moir
2024 - Billy Wilson
2024 - Matt Carroll
2024 - Cooper Lord
2025 - Nick Haynes
2025 - Jagga Smith
2025 - Harry O'Farrell
2025 - Ben Camporeale
2025 - Lucas Camporeale
2025 - Harry Charleson
2025 - Matt Duffy
2025 - Francis Evans
2025 - Will White

In a half decade of recruiting with Austin and Agresta they're hanging their hats on overpaying at the trade table for a half back flanker who was only ever going to be in his prime (and hanging on) for part of our "premiership window" and the hopes and prayers on Cerra's soft tissue and Jagga Smith.

Other moves (e.g. Agresta's targeting of Zac Williams to be a midfielder, no wait defender, hang on a forward) have crippled our salary cap. Austin signed off on that.

There's a few solid B and C grade players on the list but that should be the bare minimum expected of recruitment.

It's even worse when you look since Agresta joined the club (if you consider Walsh to be the most obvious #1 pick perhaps of all-time in what has proven to be a strong draft).
 
There's a few solid B and C grade players on the list but that should be the bare minimum expected of recruitment.

It's even worse when you look since Agresta joined the club (if you consider Walsh to be the most obvious #1 pick perhaps of all-time in what has proven to be a strong draft).
A few B and C graders you reckon? Here'smy view of A B C and unknowns. Too many Cs and Unknowns.


A B C grades.png
 
Taking a deep breath and going over the last 17 days

Max level Frustration with the loss in round 1
This blinds all logic going forward; a good side should never drop that game And it's going to hurt our cause all year.

The Hawks game we did ok. In the third we had our chances and could have had a good margin at 3qtr time if it wasn't for some skill errors and general anxiety. They on the other hand made the most of their chances.

Dogs game similar to hawks. Some bad skill errors but we still led most of the night. Fell in a heap in the last 5 mins.

I'm not putting a line through Voss just yet, but he does need to make some hard calls next few weeks.

Doc and acres need a rocket or need to get dropped; both have been terrible. Walsh is a horrible watch and if injured should not be playing. And we need to get H back asap. Kemp and Sos were great vs dogs and we need them doing that week in week out.
Hope we have some pride and get up on Thursday. And learn to kill a game when it's there to be had.

One week at a time yes, but get over the line on Thursday and we should square off at 3 and 3 in a couple of weeks time and reset the season

Voss and these so called stars need to show us they have what it takes.

Not sure if we can make some changes to our coaching but would be getting Simmo and Voss'old mate Leppa to the club if possible.
And a very good shrink or two asap, not just for the players but supporters too. Couple of sessions should come with the memberships
 
A few B and C graders you reckon? Here'smy view of A B C and unknowns. Too many Cs and Unknowns.


View attachment 2267357

I don't have Acres or Newman A graders. I appreciate what they've both given the club but neither of them are on the level of the other players in that group though both have gotten the absolute most out of their talent.

It is an indictment on the list that when we lose a consistent contributor B-grader in Newman out that the entire balance of the backline goes out of balance. I'm hoping, against hope, that once Boyd is up and running that he can move from that C-grade talent into a B-grade. Coona Blues will tell you that I've never been high on him but we really need him to step up.

Your B-graders:

I'd move Pittonet down to C-grade. Serviceable and can win his share of contests - matchup dependent - but too many weaknesses in his game to be a B-grader.

Docherty was an A-grader. Is now a C-grader until he proves that he can find form and then B-grade is probably his best.

C-Graders and unknowns

Williams is a B-grader (when healthy) being paid like an A-grader but with his constant injuries fits that C-grade profile.

Ollie Hollands is overly criticized on this board but you're probably right. A C-grader with B-grade potential who occasionally plays as a B-grader (thought his game against the Hawks fit this category) but isn't there consistently yet.

Your unknowns are a pretty good analysis.

I think you've nailed most of it though.

We have half of our true A-graders either out of the side or struggling with fitness and form (Walsh, Curnow, McKay). About half of our B-graders are down in form from their best (Acres, Docherty, McGovern, Cerra) or also out of the side (Newman, E Hollands)

Bottom line, we're better than we're performing but still expect too much from too few and also demand too much from those who are yet to prove capable.

List management and recruiting needs to shoulder much of that blame.
 

Log in to remove this ad.

I don't have Acres or Newman A graders. I appreciate what they've both given the club but neither of them are on the level of the other players in that group though both have gotten the absolute most out of their talent.

It is an indictment on the list that when we lose a consistent contributor B-grader in Newman out that the entire balance of the backline goes out of balance. I'm hoping, against hope, that once Boyd is up and running that he can move from that C-grade talent into a B-grade. Coona Blues will tell you that I've never been high on him but we really need him to step up.

Your B-graders:

I'd move Pittonet down to C-grade. Serviceable and can win his share of contests - matchup dependent - but too many weaknesses in his game to be a B-grader.

Docherty was an A-grader. Is now a C-grader until he proves that he can find form and then B-grade is probably his best.

C-Graders and unknowns

Williams is a B-grader (when healthy) being paid like an A-grader but with his constant injuries fits that C-grade profile.

Ollie Hollands is overly criticized on this board but you're probably right. A C-grader with B-grade potential who occasionally plays as a B-grader (thought his game against the Hawks fit this category) but isn't there consistently yet.

Your unknowns are a pretty good analysis.

I think you've nailed most of it though.

We have half of our true A-graders either out of the side or struggling with fitness and form (Walsh, Curnow, McKay). About half of our B-graders are down in form from their best (Acres, Docherty, McGovern, Cerra) or also out of the side (Newman, E Hollands)

Bottom line, we're better than we're performing but still expect too much from too few and also demand too much from those who are yet to prove capable.

List management and recruiting needs to shoulder much of that blame.
With Acres, I know many dont rate him but when his "on" as wingman, he is the best in the caper IMO, that's why I rate him A Grade. His a powerful runner, knows when to get fwd and attack, knows when to get back and help the defenders. He is very reliable in that regard. His disposal is letting him down at the moment.
I took into account Williams' lack of resilience and reliability when rating him C grade. He shows flashes of B and A but he is now where near it often enough.
Agree re Pitto.
 
A few B and C graders you reckon? Here'smy view of A B C and unknowns. Too many Cs and Unknowns.


View attachment 2267357
Blacres has had some great games, but should be B-Grade. Currently playing C-Grade or below.

Looking at our A-Grades

-Newman is injured
-Walsh is in horrible form
-Curnow is slowly building but has not been his usual self
-Harry has personal issues
-Blacres shouldn't be there

So we've been leaning on 3/8 dudes: Weitering, Cripps and TDK to carry the load...when we should have our strong cast of stars leading the way

Looking at our B-Grades

-Hollands has personal issues
-Pitto shouldn't be here, plus we can't fit both
-Docherty is no longer B-Grade sadly, though he was an A-Grade for a number of years
-Mitch has been in terrible form

So we're getting that next tier support from 5/9 dudes: basically half of our B-tier are not playing, or horribly out of form.

Looking at our C-Grades
Basically our whole fleet of subpar small forwards are here. IMO the biggest issue with our list build since 2015 has been our inability to land decent small forwards.
 
Blacres has had some great games, but should be B-Grade. Currently playing C-Grade or below.

Looking at our A-Grades

-Newman is injured
-Walsh is in horrible form
-Curnow is slowly building but has not been his usual self
-Harry has personal issues
-Blacres shouldn't be there

So we've been leaning on 3/8 dudes: Weitering, Cripps and TDK to carry the load...when we should have our strong cast of stars leading the way

Looking at our B-Grades

-Hollands has personal issues
-Pitto shouldn't be here, plus we can't fit both
-Docherty is no longer B-Grade sadly, though he was an A-Grade for a number of years
-Mitch has been in terrible form

So we're getting that next tier support from 5/9 dudes: basically half of our B-tier are not playing, or horribly out of form.

Looking at our C-Grades
Basically our whole fleet of subpar small forwards are here. IMO the biggest issue with our list build since 2015 has been our inability to land decent small forwards.
Hence
1743410115374.png
 

Roast Inner Feral Fan Unleashed - Warning - Unbridled, passionate, and objectionable opinions within


Write your reply...
Back
Top