Opinion Has this Carlton list already peaked?

[WalshistheGOAT]

They forget stuff deliberately im 100% convinced. Also note , pretty sure every player get the chance to kick 10 against WC and North - curnow does it he's a flat track bully, if McStay did it, would be considered a master-class.

Don't hear any accusing Tex of being a flat track bully for doing the same that year. Also don't recall anyone saying Buddy was either after belting us every time we played while we were down the bottom wrung of the ladder.

For as long as they've existed good key forwards have dined out on poor teams and stuffed their stats when they could.

Pies fans real issue with Curnow is that he's embarrassed their captain a few too many times for their liking... Just as Freo fans hate Cripps for some bizarre reason to do with bullying Serong and Brayshaw when they were young. They know they're greats but personal bias and hatred gets in the way.

Regardless of if they have some faults, Curnow and Mckay are in the top tier of key forwards in the comp atm. To say otherwise is simply childish nonsense.

 

[Fadge]

Definitely a few chances gone by but for me Carlton can win the flag next year and easily the year after. That's all you can ask of a club, be in the conversation.

So no, they haven't peaked. Just need it to all come together and get a bit of fortune.

Be in the conversation...

In January.

 

[Fadge]

Don't hear any accusing Tex of being a flat track bully for doing the same that year. Also don't recall anyone saying Buddy was either after belting us every time we played while we were down the bottom wrung of the ladder.

For as long as they've existed good key forwards have dined out on poor teams and stuffed their stats when they could.

Pies fans real issue with Curnow is that he's embarrassed their captain a few too many times for their liking... Just as Freo fans hate Cripps for some bizarre reason to do with bullying Serong and Brayshaw when they were young. They know they're greats but personal bias and hatred gets in the way.

Regardless of if they have some faults, Curnow and Mckay are in the top tier of key forwards in the comp atm. To say otherwise is simply childish nonsense.

Maybe once Curnow performs in finals, he'll lose the label...

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Maybe once Curnow performs in finals, he'll lose the label...

Id normally agree, but just a few posts up we had a Pies fan claiming Walsh does no damage to opposition despite being the best player of the 2023 finals series and performing admirably in a woeful team effort in 2024s final vs Brisbane.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't it seems.

 

[Mr Meow]

Id normally agree, but just a few posts up we had a Pies fan claiming Walsh does no damage to opposition despite being the best player of the 2023 finals series and performing admirably in a woeful team effort in 2024s final vs Brisbane.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't it seems.

Walsh was great in the 2023 finals series, but I thought didn't have much influence in the 2024 EF, especially when the heat was on.

Not listed in Carlton's best players on the AFL website, no coaches votes, 5 score involvements and 8 CPs from his 28 disposals. Was it an awful game? No. But the damage he did was nothing compared to a year earlier.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Walsh was great in the 2023 finals series, but I thought didn't have much influence in the 2024 EF, especially when the heat was on.

Not listed in Carlton's best players on the AFL website, no coaches votes, 5 score involvements and 8 CPs from his 28 disposals. Was it an awful game? No. But the damage he did was nothing compared to a year earlier.

Correct, it was an 'ordinary' game from a quality player in the sense that it was nowhere near his best, despite still being at a standard by most players would be ecstatic with.

In the same light, detractors of ours will point to our injury list and say most of our stars played plenty of games this year and thus have no upside from getting those players back to their best.

Players like Curnow, Walsh, Saad, Cerra in 2024.

If those players have a better run at things and we see the natural improvement come to fruition that we've seen from our youngsters in the pre season thus far the Blues will be around the mark for 2025.

 

[Mr Meow]

Correct, it was an 'ordinary' game from a quality player in the sense that it was nowhere near his best, despite still being at a standard by most players would be ecstatic with.

In the same light, detractors of ours will point to our injury list and say most of our stars played plenty of games this year and thus have no upside from getting those players back to their best.

Players like Curnow, Walsh, Saad, Cerra in 2024.

If those players have a better run at things and we see the natural improvement come to fruition that we've seen from our youngsters in the pre season thus far the Blues will be around the mark for 2025.

The stars are rated harshly, especially in knockout finals. There's been some savage heat on Dangerfield in finals stat lines as good or better because he had a couple of memorable clangers or was quiet when the whole team crumpled.

Alas, when Brisbane built that match winning lead I didn't think Walsh was amazing. Better once the heat went out of it.

But as far as the rest of your post I agree. Plenty of upside there. In fact if Walsh himself is damaging (rather than accumating) for an extra 5 games that alone probably scrapes 2 more wins to get Carlton top 4. When he's "on" he's electric.

People underestimate how little has to change for a team to jump from 8th to 3rd.

 

[Robertio]

Definitely a few chances gone by but for me Carlton can win the flag next year and easily the year after. That's all you can ask of a club, be in the conversation.

So no, they haven't peaked. Just need it to all come together and get a bit of fortune.

Great opinion mate even if it's January, our age profile sets us up for a few more years yet and we just have to work on a few little things and execute them in finals.

 

[Mr Meow]

Great opinion mate even if it's January, our age profile sets us up for a few more years yet and we just have to work on a few little things and execute them in finals.

I said the same thing earlier. You can praise me too mate, the world doesn't end if you do.

 

[Robertio]

I said the same thing earlier. You can praise me too mate, the world doesn't end if you do.

I've noticed you can be fair sometimes mate so well done on that, it's good for all of us to listen now and again instead of trying to force our own opinions on everyone else.

 

[Mr Meow]

I've noticed you can be fair sometimes mate so well done on that, it's good for all of us to listen now and again instead of trying to force our own opinions on everyone else.

 

[Andronicus]

Just move the car out of the garage before the karate starts.

 

[kreuze_missile]

Jagga Smith.

Just give us the flag now.

 

[Elixuh]

Jagga Smith.

Just give us the flag now.

A poor mans Levi Ashcroft

 

[dazzledavey36]

List is in a good spot. They are a definite top 4 team if injuries is kind to them.

I am looking forward to watching Jagga Smith play. I reckon he gives them a really good balance in their midfield and could easily see him playing every game next year and having a solid contribution each week.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

A poor mans Levi Ashcroft

Both will be long term fantasy pigs. Addicted to the 1-2 handballs this new generation.

 

[RAPPA]

Both sides have a compelling view. But simply put, they will not get better than 2022 if there aren’t changes to game plan, fitness and player selection by the MC.

Game plan - Voss’ tenure has yielded three yo-yo seasons. You can’t win every game but you can’t deliver poo for half a season and expect to either find form in the first week of finals or not run out of gas by then. The bomb it to the tall forward tactic is getting old and you need more than just a contested game to get the chocolates.

Fitness - Inness in, Russell out. There has been a clear change in this department from inness over of the pre season so hopefully less injuries but also improvements in gut running and speed which have not been features of Carlton’s playing style.

Match selection - rolling out the same 22/23 players week in week out is not going to win the premiership. You need to bat deep and that also means rotating the players, getting games into youngsters etc. it should. It take 14 players on the injury list to blood a draftee.

 

[Warwick]

If those players have a better run at things and we see the natural improvement come to fruition that we've seen from our youngsters in the pre season thus far the Blues will be around the mark for 2025.

Imagine a team that didn’t believe this.

Every club’s group of youngsters look fantastic in the preseason when they are opposed to themselves.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Imagine a team that didn’t believe this.

Every club’s group of youngsters look fantastic in the preseason when they are opposed to themselves.

 

[Sarcoidevo]

Injuries will mount again for the Blues .... closer to a rebuild than another Finals appearance

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Injuries will mount again for the Blues .... closer to a rebuild than another Finals appearance

And this is based on what exactly?

 

[Kobe Gryant]

He's got a point. It's the same argument every supporter base will use at this time of year, there's not much substance to it.

Carlton's youngsters aren't awful by any means...but just about every club in the league would have a similar (or better) crop that they're pinning their hopes on to propel them forward.

Agree that fitness will be the priority, and coaching too one would think. The club's been proactive in amending those issues, so hopefully that can bear fruit for them quickly.

If someone like Moir or Lord (or Smith early) can breakout it's more of a bonus after those priorities. It's unlikely to make or break the season either way.

 

[carlton_99]

He's got a point. It's the same argument every supporter base will use at this time of year, there's not much substance to it.

Carlton's youngsters aren't awful by any means...but just about every club in the league would have a similar (or better) crop that they're pinning their hopes on to propel them forward.

Agree that fitness will be the priority, and coaching too one would think. The club's been proactive in amending those issues, so hopefully that can bear fruit for them quickly.

If someone like Moir or Lord (or Smith early) can breakout it's more of a bonus after those priorities. It's unlikely to make or break the season either way.

I agree if we are just talking general improvement of youngsters across the list that would be fairly consistent across most teams. But on Carlton specifically with us moving on the likes of Owies and Kennedy I think there is a real opportunity for a couple of younger players on the list to take those roles and provide a skillset that is more conducive to winning in the modern game and based on the structure of rest of our best 23. Creating a more balanced best 23' I think will be one of the key steps for us to be a real contender in 2025 - especially in that midfield group. This is linked to the coaching comment you mentioned above as in the end they are ones that build the team every week.

Kennedy for Smith on paper looks like a downgrade but Smith's skills are far more complementary to the rest of our midfield compared to a Kennedy-type. This is similar with Motlop/Durdin/Moir compared with Owies when it comes to the forward group imo. So yes all teams expect their younger players to improve but I think the real impact they can have on team performance will different significantly depending on the roles needing to be filled in that best 23.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

He's got a point. It's the same argument every supporter base will use at this time of year, there's not much substance to it.

Carlton's youngsters aren't awful by any means...but just about every club in the league would have a similar (or better) crop that they're pinning their hopes on to propel them forward.

Agree that fitness will be the priority, and coaching too one would think. The club's been proactive in amending those issues, so hopefully that can bear fruit for them quickly.

If someone like Moir or Lord (or Smith early) can breakout it's more of a bonus after those priorities. It's unlikely to make or break the season either way.

As said above, the Blues have axed a fair bit of their stagnated role players/depth in the hopes to bring through our kids and fast track their development who are more suited to the modern game and compliment the senior players that remain better than the players we traded and delisted in the off season.

Out of the finals contenders I'd say we're the one relying on youth development the most, purely on the basis that most of the other teams have a fairly set senior core and didnt make many changes to that mix in the off season by attacking the draft.

The Blues got rid of Kennedy, Owies, Martin, Marchbank and Cunningham who would all be best 22 when fit imo.

The only real option to replace them is through youngsters now given our delistings and trade moves of late.

I can still see us making the 8 on the back of the senior players, but imo if we're to give the flag a genuine crack it would be solely reliant on players like Moir, Hollands, Lord, Motlop etc coming on in a big way.

As for what transpires in 2025, I could see the Blues going backwards before going forwards, which I'd be fairly unhappy with given it's essentially squandering another year of prime Cripps, Curnow etc...

On the other hand, if Hollands, Jagga, Moir etc can find their place as genuine contributors on the field rather than just being along for the ride I think their upside far surpasses the players we got rid of and thus would see significant improvement to our performances.

 

[Mr Meow]

As said above, the Blues have axed a fair bit of their stagnated role players/depth in the hopes to bring through our kids and fast track their development who are more suited to the modern game and compliment the senior players that remain better than the players we traded and delisted in the off season.

Out of the finals contenders I'd say we're the one relying on youth development the most, purely on the basis that most of the other teams have a fairly set senior core and didnt make many changes to that mix in the off season by attacking the draft.

The Blues got rid of Kennedy, Owies, Martin, Marchbank and Cunningham who would all be best 22 when fit imo.

The only real option to replace them is through youngsters now given our delistings and trade moves of late.

I can still see us making the 8 on the back of the senior players, but imo if we're to give the flag a genuine crack it would be solely reliant on players like Moir, Hollands, Lord, Motlop etc coming on in a big way.

As for what transpires in 2025, I could see the Blues going backwards before going forwards, which I'd be fairly unhappy with given it's essentially squandering another year of prime Cripps, Curnow etc...

On the other hand, if Hollands, Jagga, Moir etc can find their place as genuine contributors on the field rather than just being along for the ride I think their upside far surpasses the players we got rid of and thus would see significant improvement to our performances.

I think most of your thoughts in this thread have been pretty spot on.

But Carlton's best 22 will be better off without all of the players they've delisted - even if they were fit - except Martin. Kennedy didn't quite work in that midfield balance-wise, Owies kicked goals but was limited and obstructive otherwise, and Marchbank/Cunningham really didn't belong in anyone's best 22. Martin could be a point of difference if his body held up, but it's fair enough that they got sick of its failure to do so.

So I wouldn't fear going backwards before going forward. The clear out will allow for a better best 22 to develop as soon as 2025. Depth may be a concern, so a lot comes down to successful that fitness and conditioning department is.