List Mgmt. Calling All Armchair List Managers: Give Us Your Rebuild

[Darth_Tiger]

Ok. Like most of us I’m calling it. We are nowhere near it.

Yes I know it’s early in the season, but losing sucks and I can’t see us winning the next two games. We just can barely play two good quarters let alone four. Realistically 0-5 will see us staring down the barrel of a bottom four finish. The club will be looking at next year and beyond if they aren’t already.

What’s your rebuild look like? How aggressive are we going to be?
A bottom four finish would net us an amazing draft hand. How do we best leverage that?
With a raft of picks we have an opportunity to move up the draft and get some real early picks.

Do we:

accept Baker is gone? (I think he is)
What do we get for him?

see Dusty go to the Suns? What kind of compo pick would that give us? Suns could offer him big coin, could it trigger a high first round pick?

How do we handle the older premiership players? Grimes, Kmac etc. mid season retirements and hit the mid season draft or keep them around for leadership?

Which kids do we get a look at this year? Who is not up to it?

Hopper and Taranto. They were brought in for success. It didn’t work. Do we say to them they can move on if they wish and we will facilitate a trade?

What are the biggest holes in our list and how do we go about filling them?

Who do we trade out or in?

Do your best (or worst)

 

[tiger_tough]

Ok. Like most of us I’m calling it. We are nowhere near it.

Yes I know it’s early in the season, but losing sucks and I can’t see us winning the next two games. We just can barely play two good quarters let alone four. Realistically 0-5 will see us staring down the barrel of a bottom four finish. The club will be looking at next year and beyond if they aren’t already.

What’s your rebuild look like? How aggressive are we going to be?
A bottom four finish would net us an amazing draft hand. How do we best leverage that?
With a raft of picks we have an opportunity to move up the draft and get some real early picks.

Do we:

accept Baker is gone? (I think he is)
What do we get for him?

see Dusty go to the Suns? What kind of compo pick would that give us? Suns could offer him big coin, could it trigger a high first round pick?

How do we handle the older premiership players? Grimes, Kmac etc. mid season retirements and hit the mid season draft or keep them around for leadership?

Which kids do we get a look at this year? Who is not up to it?

Hopper and Taranto. They were brought in for success. It didn’t work. Do we say to them they can move on if they wish and we will facilitate a trade?

What are the biggest holes in our list and how do we go about filling them?

Who do we trade out or in?

Do your best (or worst)

I think we keep Baker if possible. His game yesterday is why.

This is what I'd be doing -

Delist/trade/FA - Ralphsmith, Dow, Pickett, McIntosh, Graham, Grimes, Prestia. Dusty only if he wants to leave and we get a decent pick (I think he stays). I'd trade Vlastuin for a late 1st/early 2nd - controversial but he has good trade value, getting on in age and we have Brown and Trezise to take over.

Re-sign - Everyone else. MRJ one year deal or delist and rookie.

Free agents - Throw the sink at McCluggage but I doubt he leaves, Josh Battle too. Make an offer to Ben Ainsworth, Harry Perryman, Ollie Florent and Will Hayward as free agents. All of which would walk into our side. Hopefully we could land a couple of them.

Trade in - No one now that all decent KPFs are off the table. Unless we identify a cheap role player (ala Blake Acres).

MSD - Mutaz El Nour. Pump games into him right away. Even if it's at the expense of Grimes or Broad.

We currently have picks 5, 25, 34, 39, 43, 52, 60, 61 and 72. Plus let's just say pick 18 for Vlastuin. Graham would fetch us a minimum and of 2nd round compensation pick (Matt Flynn is average AF ruckman, same age, 3-year deal to Eagles got GWS pick 40 last year), at a stretch could get a band 3 compensation which would currently be 26 (obviously dependent on if we bring in a free agent).

That'd be 2 x 1st round picks, 3 x 2nd round picks, 3 x 3rd round picks and 3 x 4th round picks. The blues, crows, lions, port and suns all have projected early father-son or academy selections so we should be looking at bundling up as many of the late 2nd-4th round picks for earlier picks.

I'd be wanting to end up with at least two early 1st round picks and 3 more inside 30 to draft the best available kids. That goes a long, long way toward a full rebuild.

 

[Erakor]

If you want to gut the list and and go full rebuild, it’s going to be a 10 year project. 5 plus years of recruiting and 5 years of waiting for them to hit their early/mid 20s and form a hardened group.

Use the money we get from Martin and Lynch contracts ending to get a better draft hand.

If someone offers pick 12 for example for Bolton or Baker, try to turn that into a top 6 or 7 pick in exchange for for paying x amount of the salary.


It’s a risky strategy, because you are basically saying to 80 % of the current list “ you won’t be here when we are good again.”

 

[thegcat]

Definitely don’t re-sign or delist/retire
Pickett
Dow
Prestia
Grimes
Cumberland- if not going to play the bloke (ridiculous he isn’t)
McIntosh?

Only miracle saves Colina and Ralphsmith from same fate.

Consider all reasonable offers -( if they want to go)
Dusty
Graham
Baker (has to be mutual and high pick in return)
Ross
Tarranto or Hopper - unlikely any suitors or would but would be a win for both parties

 

[Ctl]

Prestia: Retire
Martin: Leaves as FA (second round compensation pick)
Grimes: Retire
Graham: Leaves as FA (end of second round/start of 3rd round compensatory pick)

McIntosh: 50/50 wait and see
Picket: 50/50 wait and see
Colina: Is a Cat B, not included on the senior list, is a free hit

Dow: re-sign
Ralphsmith: re-sign
Lefau: re-sign

Baker: Re-sign
Miller: Re-sign
Ross: re-sign
Tresize: re-sign
K Smith: Re-sign
Coulthard: re-sign
MRJ: re-sign
Cumbo : re-sign
Mansell: re-sign
Naismith: re-sign
Ryan: re-sign
Campbell: re-sign
Green: re-sign
Nank: re-sign



Round one pick
Round two pick (Martin FA compensation pick)
Round two pick
Round two pick (tied to Fremantle, received from Port Adelaide)
End of round two pick (Graham FA compensation pick)
Round three pick
Round three pick (tied to Fremantle)
Round three pick (tied to West Coast)
Round four pick
Round four pick (tied to Port Adelaide)
Round four pick (tied to Collingwood, received from Essendon, originally received from Hawthorn)

I'd bundle all of the 2nd, 3rd and 4th round picks to teams like the Suns (Leo Lombard), Adelaide (Tyler Welsh), Brisbane (Levi Ashcroft), Carlton (Camporeale twins) and end up with an extra two first rounders for a final draft hand of 3 first round picks, our own likely a top 6 pick and then two in the teens. We need elite young talent and need to go quality over quantity. If we have a draft hand like that we don't need to trade out Baker for more picks, he is now our vice captain, one of the hardest trainers and his actions can lift the team.


There is no point gutting the list too deep, and turning over players just for the sake of it. Dow, Ralphsmith are probably lucky to get another year but they are good characters and there is already going to be a number of list changes, there is no benefit in delisting solid vfl players for first year players when there is already going to be significent list turnover

We need to draft players that are tough, competitive, quick and importantly can kick.

 

[tiger_tough]

If you want to gut the list and and go full rebuild, it’s going to be a 10 year project. 5 plus years of recruiting and 5 years of waiting for them to hit their early/mid 20s and form a hardened group.

Use the money we get from Martin and Lynch contracts ending to get a better draft hand.

If someone offers pick 12 for example for Bolton or Baker, try to turn that into a top 6 or 7 pick in exchange for for paying x amount of the salary.


It’s a risky strategy, because you are basically saying to 80 % of the current list “ you won’t be here when we are good again.”

I don't think it needs to be that long. 5 early picks this year is easily achievable without any drastic measures, say 3 early picks next year, a couple of free agents while getting rid of Prestia, Grimes, Pickett, McIntosh, Broad, potentially Martin and Lynch too in the same time frame and the list will look completely different. Just need to pump games into the kids now.

 

[Growapair]

Putting the Cart before the Horse ...
We need to appoint a new CEO ...
A clean out of the football department ... all the coaching talent has left ... and what is left is what no-one else wanted including from Meehan to Rutten and Teague and Co ... even cleaned our stats guy ... probably got some kid from Swimburne Uni doing that now lol

Gale should appoint a review of everything now including his replacement.

 

[JAKLAUGHING]

Feck it...
Nothing polite seems to work with the AFL Old Boys Club...
I would rest every senior player with a niggle...
I would play only the young players...and TANK big time for draft picks!
I would also go public and highlight the poor umpiring in both print and electronic Media...quoting examples...each and every week till the Season ended.
Every time a RFC player/coaches got interviewed I would highlight the free kick count...
Every time a past/retired oppo player mentioned on Twitter/X the unfairness of our free kicks by the Umpires...I would have the Club
interact with them as to why they thought that...
Club ought to be tardy and slow in any dealings with The AFL Old Boys Club...
I would seek legal advice as in challenging the AFL Old Boys Club fairness in umpiring the game.

 

[Erakor]

I don't think it needs to be that long. 5 early picks this year is easily achievable without any drastic measures, say 3 early picks next year, a couple of free agents while getting rid of Prestia, Grimes, Pickett, McIntosh, Broad, potentially Martin and Lynch too in the same time frame and the list will look completely different. Just need to pump games into the kids now.

You are right, doesn’t have to be.

But if we lose Martin, Baker, Prestia, Lynch, Grimes and a few others in the next season or two… it’s basically being forced on us.

You can’t expect to replenish a list in a few seasons with 18 year olds and expect top 4 results.

The only thing I would say to recruiters is, and yes I know it’s hard because you want kids that can do everything, prioritise kicking abilities. It’s where the game is going. We really lack that outside our top few players.

Also with Adam Yze, can’t judge him for the first 3 or 4 seasons if we do go down rebuild mode, simply not fair.

Give him tenure for the rebuild.

 

[TigerImposter]

Putting the Cart before the Horse ...
We need to appoint a new CEO ...
A clean out of the football department ... all the coaching talent has left ... and from Meehan to Rutten and Co ... through our stats guy, etc, etc

Gale should appoint a review of everything now including his replacement.

Yes the review needed to happen after last season and a few were suggesting it with me, but got laughed at. The whole place is a mess and suffering from sloth.

 

[Erakor]

Yes the review needed to happen after last season and a few were suggesting it with me, but got laughed at. The whole place is a mess and suffering from sloth.

I would argue we are just suffering from being at the top for over 5 years and we don’t have some bullshit academy to simply poach top talent from.

It was a great period, obviously. We simply just need as much top 5 picks as we can get and front load our contracts with smarts so we can hit free agency in 4-5 years.

 

[TigerImposter]

I would argue we are just suffering from being at the top for over 5 years and we don’t have some bullshit academy to simply poach top talent from.

It was a great period, obviously. We simply just need as much top 5 picks as we can get and front load our contracts with smarts so we can hit free agency in 4-5 years.

Unfortunately we thought our old champions would last forever and didn’t move some players on quick enough and integrate them with younger ones. Then Clarke couldn’t identify talent when he had picks and then we sold picks for poor trades and the place went to shit very quick unlike Geelong who seem to get it right. Our other issue is our fitness is at the lowest since 2016 identified by our low tackle count, injuries list and uncontested marks count by our opponents being high.

 

[DickieKnee]

I think 5 years is being optimistic. When we won the 2017 flag JR8 had been playing 10 years, Cotchin 9 years and Dusty 7 years.

 

[Erakor]

I think 5 years is being optimistic. When we won the 2017 flag JR8 had been playing 10 years, Cotchin 9 years and Dusty 7 years.

Full rebuilds are a 10 year thing.
Maybe 6-7 if you can do a hawthorn 2008.

 

[fargothegreat]

I think it's healthy for us as fans to accept that we aren't playing finals for at least the next three years, probably more.

I'm only really interested in trading older players if we can get good value for them, and anyone 25 or under is untouchable imo.

Young players showing promise should be prioritised over fringe older players such as Pickett and McIntosh.

 

[_RT_]

First things first we need to address the out of contract players this year.
Miller - has the rest of the season to prove that he has a long term future. After 7 years on the list, the opportunity is now there to prove that he is a long term KPD option to partner with Gibcus and Young moving forward.
Prestia - should be final season if we're being honest.
Martin - the call is his, owed us nothing and if he wants to go elsewhere then let him go and take the compo pick and use it wisely, either draft itself or part of packaging up with other picks to get better picks.
Grimes - see Prestia
Ralphsmith - like Miller has the rest of the season to prove he has a long term future.
Graham - ideally he steps up and becomes a part of our midfield moving forward, if not then hopefully he can draw us a good compo pick as a free agent.
Ross - appears to be getting a chance in the midfield with Hopper hurt, if he can become a cog in the middle or wings he stays for 2-3 years
Trezise - has shown plenty since being picked up and has worked his way back into the side, has the opportunity now to cement a spot. Re-sign 2-3 years
Smith - young defender who missed most of last year, but has started the 2024 season showing good signs, if he keeps improving 1-2 years wouldn't hurt at minimum money
McIntosh - one of the big dividers on the list people either love him or hate him. Depending on other retirements/trades/free agency moves, I wouldn't be against keeping him another season as depth. He won't be on big coin so no harm keeping him.
Baker - like Martin, the call is his, if he gets an offer like Brandon did to head to the Suns that's hard to knock back then we should maybe look at cashing in while his value is at its best. Would get us a top 30 pick and possibly a young player that fills another hole in a package deal
Pickett - a lot depends on his court case, but ideally he gets to 100 games for father/son rights and we can make a decision at seasons end whether he remains.
Colina - at this stage you'd have to say time to cut out losses and move on.
Coulthard - injury has put him behind the rest in the pecking order, but he should get a look it at some stage, another who has a lot to prove before seasons end.
M.Rioli - Yze seems to be a fan of what he brings to the forward line defensively, would be nice to see some more impact offensively in the way Pickett impacts at Melbourne, can see him getting another 2 years at this stage.
Lefau - not as raw as Colina or Hayes-Brown, but it was clear yesterday, that he isn't quite ready for AFL, hopefully the taste he got drives him to keep improving, could see him re-rookied at seasons end.
Cumberland - another who divides opinion, some want him in because of what he can do offensively, while others want to see a more rounded game before he gets another shot, in the same boat as Ralphsmith, needs a big 2024 to remain
Mansell - another who seems to have become a Yze favourite with his work ethic over summer, still needs to show consistent form but at this stage should get another 1-2 years.
Naismith - for me this depends on 1. how his body holds up & 2. how Ryan develops as a ruckman. Wouldn't be against a 1 year deal as insurance.
Ryan - like Cumberland & Ralphsmith Ryan needs to have a big year. He needs to prove that he is a capable ruckman at senior level. He doesn't need to be as good as Nankervis is, but he needs to show he can be our number 1 ruck for when Nankervis retires
Campbell - started the season strong and should get rewarded with a senior spot at seasons end if he continues. 2 years no drama at this stage
Green - 2nd year in the system and doesn't really impact the game that much needs a big 2024 also.
Dow - high hopes in the summer have cooled a little with a slow start to the season. Yze seems to be giving him a good chance to prove he belongs but needs to start showing more than he is. Could get a 2 year deal at a bargain price if he steps up.
Nankervis - should be re-signed as a priority as he is clearly our best ruckman still and also captain of the club. Turns 30 this year so a 2-3 year deal could see him through to the end of his career.

In summary plenty that need to show something to remain, while some older guys have big calls to make and others may have their calls made for them, before being given the opportunity to make the announcement themselves.

As far as trades & free agency go, for mine this isn't the time to be chasing any more big money big name recruits. Finding some young but ready to go players who can come in and fill holes would be handy. For example if Baker headed to Fremantle, targeting Josh Treacy as a long term KPF option would be where I'd be aiming, unless Fremantle offers up one of their first round picks. If he wanted to go to WCE, then their 2nd round pick and a player or a package of picks would be what I'd hope we'd chase, as WCE aren't giving up a likely top 2 pick for Baker no matter how much some might want it.

Another option that our draft hand could allow us to target is Will Phillips at North, a former top 3 pick who has had to deal with Covid and Glandular fever in his 3 completed seasons which has hindered his development, and with North having a swag of young top end talent, he could be one that looks for opportunity elsewhere.

So getting Treacy & Phillips to replace Baker and a draft pick would address some holes in our list, while also allowing us to maintain a good draft hand, that we could hopefully wheel and deal into another crop of 4-5 top 30 kids at the draft table. At this stage we're likely to have access to a top 10 pick, possibly even top 5. With some smart trading we could end up with a late first and 2-3 picks in the 20-30 range that would give us a nice injection of young talent to keep building the list back up.

Ideally I'd like to see us heading into 2025 with an experienced core of Martin Lynch Vlastuin D.Rioli Short Taranto Nankervis Hopper Broad Graham Bolton Baker Balta & Ross that we build around with kids that have either stepped up this year or a handful of new draftees added at seasons end. IMO that would allow us to remain competitive while still giving plenty of opportunity to the next generation of talent to come through.

 

[banzai]

Ok. Like most of us I’m calling it. We are nowhere near it.

Yes I know it’s early in the season, but losing sucks and I can’t see us winning the next two games. We just can barely play two good quarters let alone four. Realistically 0-5 will see us staring down the barrel of a bottom four finish. The club will be looking at next year and beyond if they aren’t already.

What’s your rebuild look like? How aggressive are we going to be?
A bottom four finish would net us an amazing draft hand. How do we best leverage that?
With a raft of picks we have an opportunity to move up the draft and get some real early picks.

Do we:

accept Baker is gone? (I think he is)
What do we get for him?

see Dusty go to the Suns? What kind of compo pick would that give us? Suns could offer him big coin, could it trigger a high first round pick?

How do we handle the older premiership players? Grimes, Kmac etc. mid season retirements and hit the mid season draft or keep them around for leadership?

Which kids do we get a look at this year? Who is not up to it?

Hopper and Taranto. They were brought in for success. It didn’t work. Do we say to them they can move on if they wish and we will facilitate a trade?

What are the biggest holes in our list and how do we go about filling them?

Who do we trade out or in?

Do your best (or worst)

Baker is probably gone, we must try and keep him, but it will be a hard sell if we concede we aren't playing finals anytime soon and hes getting massive offers from back home. We aren't getting a decent pick for Dusty. He's 33 next year, not sure we will get any compo at all if he goes as a Free Agent.

Hopper and Taranto is interesting, would you accept a 3rd rounder back for either of them? and obviously we would be paying a fair bit of their contract as well. I just don't see anyone wanting to take them given the contracts they are on. The game is all about speed of ball movement now and they don't offer that.

As for Kmac and Grimes etc. Need to see where we are at midseason injury wise. If the list is healthy, yeah its probably time for them to retire, if the injury list is bad (it probably will be) they will need to stick around until the end of the season.

I would just play our best team to win the first 15 games. We are young enough anyway now, just keep trying to win every game. We are looking at being 0-5, I would say at best from there we get to 5-10 after 15 games. From there, it's play the kids the last 8 weeks, maybe jag one more win. I would say from there we finish 16th or 17th depending on what North do.

If we go too young now, the problem is the young players will be cooked by midyear. The older players would have checked out by then, then the 2nd half of the season we are losing by 100 points every week with no one at the games.

Going forward I'd just be hitting the draft hard for the next 3-4 years. Wouldn't force any 25-30 year olds out, but if they want to leave knowing we aint playing finals any time soon, find a trade and let them go. As for players coming in, just hit the draft, maybe look for a Houli/Grigg cheap young players that don't cost much.

 

[skinnyP]

We dont need a rebuild. It's never as good or as bad as it seems. Just recruit for the best available players and trade for needs, as always.

But no more trading future 1sts. The gamble is too high and as much as I like Hopper, I wouldn't have given up pick 6 for him.

 

[RJK Tiger]

Unfortunately the time to rebuild is over. Now we can only basically tank. We have no players that you can trade out to get meaningful rewards - but if you have anyone offering, you take it.

Do not draft any Flankers, focus on everything but.

The reality is we might not have a single player on our list that will play in another Tiger Premiership. We need to make moves around that reality and go about getting players we do think can be ASAP.

If we have suitors offering overs of any player - you take it. If anyone will take Taranto for the same price we paid for him, you take it.
If anyone wants Hopper for a early 2nd rounder if you can, just wear the loss now and get worse quicker. Need to "un-do" the mistakes and wear the losses sooner than rather carry it around for another 7 years. If we can get JUH without having to give up picks - ie Lynch & Short / Lynch & Taranto - you take it. If anyone gives us 2 first rounder for Baker, we take it.

Communicate to the supporter a clear expectation that the next 3-4 years are going to be really tough & find a way to keep them engaged and feeling valued over that time.

Once you have a core group of young players that are in the same quality of a young Dusty, Cotchin, Rance, Martin, with hopefully a few Edwards, Lambert, Grimes types too - you hit Free Agency and get players that meet the quota of us getting them for "compo picks"

No secret pathway here - its all a long road.

 

[Bojangles17]

Don’t mind the stock of mids we have coming on and that’ll only improve , and HBF, sadly we don’t have any qty tall stock apart from sone unknown quantities and gibbo , hope like heck we can secure a cadman type with a likely low pic . We need two talented kpp onto the list ,,,desperately,,,,,,,, good thing we no longer have Clarke scouring the u18 as we know he can’t see over 5”8

 

[Erakor]

Two questions….

Do we actually get a campo pick for dusty leaving ? I was under the impression that we don’t.

Is there a limit to how much we can pay the contract of a player playing elsewhere?

For example, can we pay 100% of Baker’s contract for the first two years in exchange for a top 5 pick…. Or 80% of Torranto’s wage for a top 15 pick?

If we do go rebuild and lose a few players (also, Lynch and Dusty’s big contracts end this year) it is not like we will be lacking salary cap space or anyone to really spend it on.

 

[banzai]

Two questions….

Do we actually get a campo pick for dusty leaving ? I was under the impression that we don’t.

Is there a limit to how much we can pay the contract of a player playing elsewhere?

For example, can we pay 100% of Baker’s contract for the first two years in exchange for a top 5 pick…. Or 80% of Torranto’s wage for a top 15 pick?

If we do go rebuild and lose a few players (also, Lynch and Dusty’s big contracts end this year) it is not like we will be lacking salary cap space or anyone to really spend it on.

We cant pay any of Bakers contract as hes out of contract at seasons end. Taranto we could, but we arent getting a top 15 pick anyway. As for Dusty surely people arent expecting better than a 4th rounder for a 33 year old via FA compo??

 

[Erakor]

We cant pay any of Bakers contract as hes out of contract at seasons end. Taranto we could, but we arent getting a top 15 pick anyway. As for Dusty surely people arent expecting better than a 4th rounder for a 33 year old via FA compo??

Could we sign him, trade him and then pay in exchange for top 5 pick?

Would be smart but also great to piss pff the AFL and Cornes who would have meltdowns about the ‘spirit of the game’

 

[Madtiger2006]

Need Sonsie Cumberland and Clarke in the team all year

 

[TheOptimum18]

Free agents - Throw the sink at McCluggage but I doubt he leaves, Josh Battle too. Make an offer to Ben Ainsworth, Harry Perryman, Ollie Florent and Will Hayward as free agents. All of which would walk into our side. Hopefully we could land a couple of them.

McCluggage, Perryman, Hayward, sure (Perryman and Hayward only for the right price).
Rumours Saints have a 6 year deal on the table for Battle, so no go for me.
Florent feels overrated.