Current Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell Pt 3 * Coroner's Hearings Concluded

[Kurve]

Continued from PART 2

Criminal charges:

• Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs)
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster mother *Not Guilty
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster father *Not Guilty
• 2 x charges of assault against a child on former foster mother *Guilty
• 1 x charge of assault against a child on former foster father *Not Guilty
• Stalking &/or Intimidation on both *Guilty
• Dummy bidding real estate fraud *Guilty

TIMELINE

Where's William Tyrrell? - The Ch 10 podcast (under Coroner's subpoena)

Operation Arkstone

Please type names out in full for those who are not covered by suppression orders.

For those covered by suppression orders, please use the following to indicate:

FM - Foster Mother
FF - Foster Father
FGM - Foster Grandmother
FD - Foster Daughter
FPs - Foster Parents

Up to you if you wish to refer to them as former fosters but please write it in full, strictly using the above. No deviations.

Other initials posters will use informally but should not are:

BCR - Batar Creek Road
FA - Frank Abbott
MW - Michelle White
SFR - Strike Force Rosann
AMS - Anne Maree Sharpley
CCR - Cobb and Co Road
GO - Geoff Owens
One even reduced bike riding to - BR
COG - Consciousness of guilt. Like WHO KNEW?

 

[Earls Smother]

Just because nobody immediately responded to your request does not mean that these things never happen. You might find that it happens quite often but never finds its way into mainstream media, because people are entitled to privacy, and it is usually brought about by very unfortunate family circumstances. Most of these such cases, when discovered will never be reported publicly or spoken about to protect surviving family members. Usually there are things such as mental health issues in play, and it is not in the public interest to report them widely.

There are documented cases, however if you care to look.
Kaydence Mills, for example in Australia. Jaydyn Leskie is another.
Victoria Climbie and Peter Connelly (Baby P) both in the UK.
Rilya Wilson in the USA.

There are also similar themes / allegations running through the Jon Benet Ramsay and Madeleine McCann cases, although these have not been proven in court.

None of those cases are proven to be the disposal of a body to hide an accident or reckless act.

They are either murders where enough doubt has been created, or abductions where people make shit up to implicate the parents.

 

[31550]

None of those cases are proven to be the disposal of a body to hide an accident or reckless act.

They are either murders where enough doubt has been created, or abductions where people make shit up to implicate the parents.

With respect, they absolutely are cases where the body was hidden by 'family' or at least 'carers' to conceal a killing.
I suggest you familiarise yourself with the cases I quoted, especially Kaydence Mills and Jaidyn Leskie.

Editorial: perhaps people's unwillingness to believe the evil which lies within some people is the reason many of these cases go unsolved, or at least unpunished?

 

[Earls Smother]

With respect, they absolutely are cases where the body was hidden by 'family' or at least 'carers' to conceal a killing.
I suggest you familiarise yourself with the cases I quoted, especially Kaydence Mills and Jaidyn Leskie.

Editorial: perhaps people's unwillingness to believe the evil which lies within some people is the reason many of these cases go unsolved, or at least unpunished?

Mills was murder.

I suppose with Leskie there is uncertainty over cause of death, but I don’t think many people think it was an accident. There was also really no alternative theory because the body was found and known to have been moved there.

I’ll give you that 1 to provide the less than 1% that I quoted.

 

[passball]

IMO

I feel some people can't believe they FPs would harm William
Just this week a mother stabbed her 3 children. Was supposedly a nice normal family.
Nice normal people CAN do not nice things. It happens.

Look at Chris Watts. Killed his family to be with a woman. Still no remorse from him and he has photos of his children who he killed on a wall in his cell.

This is a sad case. The foster parents could have said they didn't want to care for this boy anymore but they chose not to. And then this happens.

Leiland-James Corkill: The baby murdered by the woman trying to adopt him

Leiland-James Corkill was a "happy boy" murdered by Laura Castle who called him "devil spawn".

www.bbc.com

IMO

 

[Lady O]

IMO

I feel some people can't believe they FPs would harm William
Just this week a mother stabbed her 3 children. Was supposedly a nice normal family.
Nice normal people CAN do not nice things. It happens.

Look at Chris Watts. Killed his family to be with a woman. Still no remorse from him and he has photos of his children who he killed on a wall in his cell.

This is a sad case. The foster parents could have said they didn't want to care for this boy anymore but they chose not to. And then this happens.

Leiland-James Corkill: The baby murdered by the woman trying to adopt him

Leiland-James Corkill was a "happy boy" murdered by Laura Castle who called him "devil spawn".

www.bbc.com

IMO

I think FM did say something like she was struggling with WT's behaviour, just before he went missing. You might even be correct in thinking that if she did cover up an accident, by removing the body, it was because she thought her report of difficulty with WT's behaviour might have made her subject to suspicion of his murder.

 

[31550]

Mills was murder.

I suppose with Leskie there is uncertainty over cause of death, but I don’t think many people think it was an accident. There was also really no alternative theory because the body was found and known to have been moved there.

I’ll give you that 1 to provide the less than 1% that I quoted.

I think you are taking too narrow a view of the situation.
You seem to be suggesting that it has to be an actual case of 'murder' for someone to conceal a body?
And if it's say, an accidental homicide, everyone would always report it and face the consequences?

IMO It doesn't have to be murder.

I am talking about any type of death (accidental, intentional or otherwise) of a toddler while in the care of an adult, where the action or inaction of that adult (or another person) has contributed in some way to that toddler's death. Even though this may often not meet the threshold required to prove murder in court. If the action or inaction leads to the toddler's death then it is highly probably in my view that the adult carer might seriously consider concealment of the body to protect themself or another person from consequences (legal, social, financial, emotional, familial ...) arising out of the death of the toddler. Would they go through with it? IMO yes, if there was a chance they could get away with it, or if the consequences were in their view, unbearable.

(By the way, murder has never been proven in the Mills case, but the parents confessed to burying the body).

It is also very clear to me that Domasiewicz caused the death of Jaidyn, but due to the passage of time and corruption of evidence, police have never been able to prove this to a court's satisfaction.

 

[passball]

I think FM did say something like she was struggling with WT's behaviour, just before he went missing. You might even be correct in thinking that if she did cover up an accident, by removing the body, it was because she thought her report of difficulty with WT's behaviour might have made her subject to suspicion of his murder.

Yes, there were messages saying she was struggling.
I wonder what prompted Ben the caseworker to visit the FPs just before they left to go to FGMs.
When Ben turned up FF was in his PJs looking a bit shite. FF told Ben it was self inflicted. Hangover from alcohol and /or drugs.
William, it was said, would run to Ben and put his arms around Ben's legs, he really liked Ben.
It must have been hard for the FM to see Williams affection for everyone except her. Could imagine that would make FM jealous that she could not bond with William yet he could so
easily bond with the Bios and Ben.

IMO

 

[Underarrest_]

The DPP would have reasonably expected forensic evidence to have been found in the "offending" vehicle.

Given the police had none from a known car, the DPP wanted to ascertain if there was possible use of another. There wasn't.

It’s possible no forensic evidence was found in either car (FGM of FF’s.)
For the DPP to consider if it’s possible another car was used, police might have other evidence.
I agree though we don’t know what evidence police have.

 

[31550]

I feel some people can't believe they FPs would harm William
Just this week a mother stabbed her 3 children. Was supposedly a nice normal family.
Nice normal people CAN do not nice things. It happens.

This is the crux of the situation.

Everyone is a 'normal' person until they do enough abnormal things to be labelled 'abnormal'.
Nobody is a criminal until they commit a crime.
Nobody is a murderer until they murder somebody.
Nobody goes around broadcasting, "I may seem like a normal nice person, but I am about to do something abnormal and not nice!".

Doing something out of character or unexpected does not necessarily make someone "insane" or "criminal" or even "abnormal".

People are unpredictable. People do unexpected things all the time.

 

[Earls Smother]

I think you are taking too narrow a view of the situation.
You seem to be suggesting that it has to be an actual case of 'murder' for someone to conceal a body?
And if it's say, an accidental homicide, everyone would always report it and face the consequences?

IMO It doesn't have to be murder.

I am talking about any type of death (accidental, intentional or otherwise) of a toddler while in the care of an adult, where the action or inaction of that adult (or another person) has contributed in some way to that toddler's death. Even though this may often not meet the threshold required to prove murder in court. If the action or inaction leads to the toddler's death then it is highly probably in my view that the adult carer might seriously consider concealment of the body to protect themself or another person from consequences (legal, social, financial, emotional, familial ...) arising out of the death of the toddler. Would they go through with it? IMO yes, if there was a chance they could get away with it, or if the consequences were in their view, unbearable.

(By the way, murder has never been proven in the Mills case, but the parents confessed to burying the body).

It is also very clear to me that Domasiewicz caused the death of Jaidyn, but due to the passage of time and corruption of evidence, police have never been able to prove this to a court's satisfaction.

The police believed murder or intent existed in those cases. They have never alleged anything along those lines with this one.

The fact is, there is no proven cases that in any way replicate what they think happened here i.e. covering up an accident.

That doesn’t mean it can’t happen, but the discussion evolved due to the quoting of actual statistics.

Statistically, abduction is more likely than what is alleged here.

 

[passball]

For the Police to say that FM interfered with a corpse they must think or know William is deceased.
Someone must have told them, but who?
It has to be family or someone that saw this.
I hope that is a card they are hiding.

Going back to Wendy Hudsons notes, there was an in incident involving FMs brother.

IMO

 

[31550]

The police believed murder or intent existed in those cases. They have never alleged anything along those lines with this one.

The fact is, there is no proven cases that in any way replicate what they think happened here i.e. covering up an accident.

That doesn’t mean it can’t happen, but the discussion evolved due to the quoting of actual statistics.

Statistically, abduction is more likely than what is alleged here.

As I said earlier, if murder is not proven or at least alleged, then these cases rarely get media attention, as they are very sad and surviving families need protection - there is no public interest in reporting them. When there is murder they do get reported because these trials get in the public domain whether we like it or not.

But these cases DO exist:

Internal report reveals child protection failures in lead-up to infant's death

Despite a "recent history" of parental substance abuse and family violence, child services failed to conduct an adequate risk assessment in the case of a newborn baby before she died aged six weeks, an internal investigation obtained by the ABC reveals.

www.abc.net.au

 

[passball]

This is the crux of the situation.

Everyone is a 'normal' person until they do enough abnormal things to be labelled 'abnormal'.
Nobody is a criminal until they commit a crime.
Nobody is a murderer until they murder somebody.
Nobody goes around broadcasting, "I may seem like a normal nice person, but I am about to do something abnormal and not nice!".

Doing something out of character or unexpected does not necessarily make someone "insane" or "criminal" or even "abnormal".

People are unpredictable. People do unexpected things all the time.

ALL TRUE.

 

[passball]

The police believed murder or intent existed in those cases. They have never alleged anything along those lines with this one.

The fact is, there is no proven cases that in any way replicate what they think happened here i.e. covering up an accident.

That doesn’t mean it can’t happen, but the discussion evolved due to the quoting of actual statistics.

Statistically, abduction is more likely than what is alleged here.

All missing persons files should be solved then if you think children's bodies aren't covered up or hidden due to murder or accidents.

I suggest you look at the massive cases of missing children in care in South Australia.
You can jump in to that rabbit hole.

I think you will be a while, pack lots of carrots.

 

[Underarrest_]

This is the crux of the situation.

Everyone is a 'normal' person until they do enough abnormal things to be labelled 'abnormal'.
Nobody is a criminal until they commit a crime.
Nobody is a murderer until they murder somebody.
Nobody goes around broadcasting, "I may seem like a normal nice person, but I am about to do something abnormal and not nice!".

Doing something out of character or unexpected does not necessarily make someone "insane" or "criminal" or even "abnormal".

People are unpredictable. People do unexpected things all the time.

I’m not sure if people’s views are based on this though. We’re all on these forums and see what people can do.
I think the problem is, this has dragged on for so long and there has been that much involved (other persons of interests named through out the inquest) with little evidence of FM’s involvement (in public and yes rightly so) and no charges laid (as yet anyway) and waiting on findings of a coronial inquest.

 

[31550]

https://www.vgls.vic.gov.au/client/en_AU/search/asset/1161310/0

Child deaths from abuse and neglect

An overview of the statistics on child deaths resulting from abuse and neglect, and information on the recording of child deaths in Australia

aifs.gov.au

Worth reading if you have the stomach for this sort of thing.

 

[Lady O]

It’s possible no forensic evidence was found in either car (FGM of FF’s.)
For the DPP to consider if it’s possible another car was used, police might have other evidence.
I agree though we don’t know what evidence police have.

I think you could assume the evidence was given by FM herself in her walk through video. One of the only times I believe, that she mentions it.

 

[31550]

I’m not sure if people’s views are based on this though. We’re all on these forums and see what people can do.
I think the problem is, this has dragged on for so long and there has been that much involved (other persons of interests named through out the inquest) with little evidence of FM’s involvement (in public and yes rightly so) and no charges laid (as yet anyway) and waiting on findings of a coronial inquest.

This case has caught public attention. Because William was quickly reported missing and a huge land search erupted within hours, fuelled by media attention. It would not go away because William was never found. Then a paedophile / abduction is alleged, so of course the media frenzy continues and grows. Then a $1M reward, ... it goes on.

But there are hundreds of other cases which escape media attention. Because the child is not reported missing straight away. Abduction is not alleged straight away. Or because the body of the child is found soon after the event, or nobody notices the child missing, or there are other circumstances. These cases don't get reported. Why should they?

 

[31550]

It’s possible no forensic evidence was found in either car (FGM of FF’s.)
For the DPP to consider if it’s possible another car was used, police might have other evidence.
I agree though we don’t know what evidence police have.

Forensic evidence such as DNA belonging to William found in either car would be useless in a court of law. William had access to both vehicles and definitely travelled in FF car. Blood might be somewhat incriminating but still not proof of anything.

Only cadaverine would go close to proving anything, and this evidence would still be subject to forensic and legal challenge. It's not a smoking gun.

 

[Underarrest_]

This case has caught public attention. Because William was quickly reported missing and a huge land search erupted within hours, fuelled by media attention. It would not go away because William was never found. Then a paedophile / abduction is alleged, so of course the media frenzy continues and grows. Then a $1M reward, ... it goes on.

But there are hundreds of other cases which escape media attention. Because the child is not reported missing straight away. Abduction is not alleged straight away. Or because the body of the child is found soon after the event, or nobody notices the child missing, or there are other circumstances. These cases don't get reported. Why should they?

Ok and of course not every child abuse/neglect case is reported publicly neither and there’s been families who’ve gotten away with children missing for years when they’ve died, worldwide, but I think I was more saying that people are aware of what people can do.

 

[LRitz]

Now I'll play Devil's Advocate and reframe it a different way. Given no-one can provide a single example of a previous instance of covering up an accidental or reckless death within a family, I will be generous and say 1%.

3% by persons unknown.
1% by family member to hide accident or reckless act.

Therefore it is at least 3 times more likely that he was abducted, than the current theory involving the foster family.

Statistics are useful and have a place. They can help anticipate things to take action to prevent or reduce your risk,...., the one in a hundred year flood, Annual rain fall, high blood pressure increases your risk of artery disease, etc. But in individual cases they are not so useful. You could say that in past cases it was more likely that ......xyz, but this does not exclude other things.

From a Google search: There are three kinds of lies: Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics” — has been attributed to Mark Twain, who himself attributed it to British Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli, who might never have said it in the first place.

 

[jason_recliner]

Agree generally but not entirely accurate. Certainly one should not be doggedly wedded to one hypothesis.
The scientific method is generally:

• Observation and Questioning
• Hypothesis formation
• Data collection and experimentation
• Analysis and evaluation
• Conclusion

Yep, and you and ARB (and others) have made up (different, from each other) 'observations' (narratives) while ignoring actual observations (evidence). Observation is the critical first step in the method, and everything you go on to hypothesise is consequently necessarily flawed. That's not even to say the FM didn't do it (while exceedingly unlikely), but rather there's no evidence we've seen that she did other than the police stating they believe she did, and plenty that she didn't - you (plural) are basing your position on imagined falsehoods and easily explained happenstances. **

 

[LRitz]

Yeah, but I think Kurve is trying to keep us on a track that aligns with what the investigators are suggesting. We can come up with any number of wild theories, backed up by next to no evidence or something someone thought they saw reflected in a window in a photo, but it is not something that should be discussed on the forum, due to absolutely no evidence.

Wild theories! There have been lots of discussions about ideas without any evidence. The fall from the balcony was a theory. No witness, no evidence, no forensics. The only evidence was that there was a balcony at the house. The police did a big dig and came up with Zip, as far as we know. No mention at the coroners of new evidence. But a bit of discussion as I recall. The height of the balcony, likelihood of injury from a fall that high, furniture on the balcony.....

And then theory, the neighbour running over William with her car on the way to bingo, the postie running over William, fall from bike.

Though I think it is understood that these are just theories and ideas that could be possible, even if they do sound a bit wild.

I doubt the Police would put forward a theory like this without something to back it up.

Mr Spedding would not agree with that. Police put forward a theory. Then arrested him (with some leaked information so there was media coverage). Then they looked at historic charges. Then eventually they found out where he was on Friday morning, and why he had missed the phone call. Remember it was FGM who had him visit her house earlier that week. She remembers that bit in her walkthrough.

 

[31550]

Yep, and you and ARB (and others) have made up (different, from each other) 'observations' (narratives) while ignoring actual observations (evidence). Observation is the critical first step in the method, and everything you go on to hypothesise is necessarily flawed. That's not even to say the FM didn't do it (while exceedingly unlikely), but rather there's no evidence we've seen that she did other than the police stating they believe she did, and plenty that she didn't - you are basing your position on imagined falsehoods and easily explained happenstances. *

Specific examples might help explain your case better than massive generalisations, false assumptions and personal bias.

 

[jason_recliner]

Specific examples might help explain your case better than massive generalisations, false assumptions and personal bias.

I presented no "massive generalisations, false assumptions and personal bias". The evidence is clear, has been listed repeatedly (this is the third thread FFS), and my statement obviously refers to endless posts by you and others. The "specific example" would therefore be 75% or more of the content of the three threads. But, if you really must, just in the last few pages...

"perhaps William overdosed on FF's anti-anxiety' medicine"

"FGM MUST have seen FF at breakfast if FM had breakfast with them both"

"100% that's a species of magnolia that only flowers at Christmas"

I think you get the picture!