Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

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Hmm, have AFL got the wrong Richmond player below.

Currently, they have HAMILTON STOKESBURY (26 June 1897 - 3 March 1968) 1915, 1 game.
His wiki page is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamilton_Stokesbury as Albert Hamilton Stokesbury.
Look at the footnote No.4 on that wiki page. It is referring to the Paul Hogan RFC book of 1996 'The Tigers of Old'.
Hogan had been misinformed; although Hamilton was related to the talented boxer, respected referee, and Richmond trainer, Joseph Allwood "Joe" Stokesberry (1873-1952), who married Nellie Lewis in 1894, (see, for example, Deaths: Stokesberry, The Argus, (Wednesday, 22 October 1952), p.12.), he was not his son, he was his nephew.

But in 1913 there is a Harry Stokeberry , "offspring of Trainer "Joe"', trying out for Richmond http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article254613080
I reckon that's William Henry Stokesberry , b 1896 to mother Lewis, and father Jos Allwood Stokesberry
And at Joe Allwood Stokesberry death, the notice says he had a son Harry.

So was it Harry Stokesberry, the son of Richmond trainer Joe Stokesberry, who 2 years later played that 1 game in 1915
Or was it 'a nephew' Hamilton Stokesbury?

The Age says Stokesbury played for Richmond that day http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article154987013
But keep in mind a few papers would often spell Joe Stokesberry's name wrong (ie: Sporting Judge 'Stokesbury' http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article154819483) so did they maybe spell the RFC players name wrong as well?

and where did the idea that the first name of the RFC player is 'Hamilton' come from? Is that anywhere in print in Trove papers.
 
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Re: Billy Harrison post, that appears to be solved by Rodgers.
Some communication issue in original convo between him and relative. Long story short his obit listed his wife's parents.
So thats closed. Will tell you final dov and dod when Rodgers sends it.
 

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rbartlett said:
Hmm, have AFL got the wrong Richmond player below.

Currently, they have HAMILTON STOKESBURY (26 June 1897 - 3 March 1968) 1915, 1 game.
His wiki page is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamilton_Stokesbury as Albert Hamilton Stokesbury.
Look at the footnote No.4 on that wiki page. It is referring to the Paul Hogan RFC book of 1996 'The Tigers of Old'.
Hogan had been misinformed; although Hamilton was related to the talented boxer, respected referee, and Richmond trainer, Joseph Allwood "Joe" Stokesberry (1873-1952), who married Nellie Lewis in 1894, (see, for example, Deaths: Stokesberry, The Argus, (Wednesday, 22 October 1952), p.12.), he was not his son, he was his nephew.

But in 1913 there is a Harry Stokeberry , "offspring of Trainer "Joe"', trying out for Richmond http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article254613080
I reckon that's William Henry Stokesberry , b 1896 to mother Lewis, and father Jos Allwood Stokesberry
And at Joe Allwood Stokesberry death, the notice says he had a son Harry.

So was it Harry Stokesberry, the son of Richmond trainer Joe Stokesberry, who 2 years later played that 1 game in 1915
Or was it 'a nephew' Hamilton Stokesbury?

The Age says Stokesbury played for Richmond that day http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article154987013
But keep in mind a few papers would often spell Joe Stokesberry's name wrong (ie: Sporting Judge 'Stokesbury' http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article154819483) so did they maybe spell the RFC players name wrong as well?

and where did the idea that the first name of the RFC player is 'Hamilton' come from? Is that anywhere in print in Trove papers.
Click to expand...
This really is a dubious one, and I agree that they just might have the wrong person in the records! Whoever the player was, whether it was the son or the nephew of Joe Stokesberry, they surely have the spelling of the surname incorrect (with Stokesbury).

Richmond played a game against a Ballarat team in August 1914 and a player referred to as "Stokesbury Junior" was in the (Richmond) side: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/254626209

Joe Stokesberry was obviously a popular and well-known figure at the club, and it very likely was referring to his son, and almost certainly the same son who was trying out there a year earlier. It seems reasonable that since he was at the club in 1913 and 1914 that he might have been the player called on for that one-off game in 1915.

I don't know where they've got the Hamilton from. While there was a Hamilton Stokesberry/Stokesbury around at the time, perhaps they picked out the wrong H. Stokesberry at some stage and have used his details ever since? It would be interesting to know what inspired footnote No.4 on the wiki page.

According to Hogan's book "Hamilton was a centre-half-forward whose only club game was as a last minute replacement when Richmond were short of players. He was the son of long-time club trainer, Joe Stokesbury." Did he play in that position in the 1915 game*, and is that where that came from? Hamilton Stokesbury was just 167cm (74kg) according to the AFL's records (5' 5 1/2" from service records).

* The Herald named "Stokesby" on a HBF for that game: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/242355807

He wasn't named in the Richmond team line-up in the Rd. 16 Football Record, so he seemingly did come in at the last minute.
 
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The Albert Hamilton Stokesbury WW1 record has CANCELLED written over it in big letters. Looks like he forged his mothers signature and so they cancelled him.

Rodgers then found a "Hamilton Stokesberry" WW1 record, but that may be a different guy perhaps ?
Anyhow, Rodgers will look further on Tuesday to see if he can find where 'Hamilton' originated from. And we can keep searching here. But I'm leaning towards the player being Joe Stokesberry's son.
 
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I had posted this the other night as part of my search.

Not sure what cancelled means


To confuse matters further Hamilton Stokesbury born 1896 to Ella died in France in 1918 as Stokesberry (AIF) Born in Vic enlisted 1916 in WA and his mother was in Kalgoorlie
 
rbartlett said:
The Albert Hamilton Stokesbury WW1 record has CANCELLED written over it in big letters. Looks like he forged his mothers signature and so they cancelled him.

Rodgers then found a "Hamilton Stokesberry" WW1 record, but that may be a different guy perhaps ?
Anyhow, Rodgers will look further on Tuesday to see if he can find where 'Hamilton' originated from. And we can keep searching here. But I'm leaning towards the player being Joe Stokesberry's son.
Click to expand...
696588

I looked at the war records the other day and Hamilton Stokesberry (who was born in Melbourne) had moved with his family over to WA (and enlisted there). He was killed in France in 1918. I think his father moved back to Melbourne around that time. If he provided the correct age he should have been born c. March 1896. His brother Robert also enlisted (naming Hamilton as his NOK).
696582
The WA chap's mother was Ella Maud, while Esther was the mother of the (supposed) Richmond player. I would think there'd be a fair chance that they were cousins.

The story about Albert Hamilton Stokesbury 's short-lived WW1 service is on the Wiki page:
Military career
Stokesbury enlisted in the Australian Imperial Force in September 1915. Under the laws in force at the time, because he had not yet attained 21 years, he was considered a minor; and, therefore, required parental consent. In his enlistment papers a signature purporting to be his mother's agreed to his joining the AIF. In November 1915 the army was informed that the mother did not consent to his deployment. He was discharged in December 1915 after being absent without leave for several weeks.[5][6]
==========
It will be interesting to see what S. Rodgers has to say, but I think it's very likely someone has seen that a H. Stokesberry/Stokesbury played for Richmond and just gone with Hamilton Stokesberry and used his DOB and other details. I suspect that Joe's son was "hanging around" the club and got a game in 1915 when somebody failed to turn up/couldn't play. Since he had tried out with Richmond in 1913 and (most likely) played in the game against the Ballarat team in 1914 we know he at least was a footballer, while we have found no mention of Hamilton joining the club/trying out.

696709
 
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I'm on the same wavelength Daics.
We know from a conversation earlier in the year with Rodgers that the majority of pre WW2 player full names were unknown, when Rodgers began his research in the late 1980s.
It highly possible that he searched the BDM registry/pioneer index for "H Stokesbury" between 1885s-1900s and saw that the only one who was a potential match was "Hamilton Stokesbury". ( A Robert Henry Stokesbury also is born but thats in 1900, too young).
So he went with that.
And with almost no other information available then at the time about Stokesbury, there was no reason to think it was incorrect.

Once Rodgers looks at his League documents on Tuesday we will know more. I suspect it will simple show H. Stokesbury.

The added question is what year did our potential William Henry Stokesberry die?
 
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rbartlett said:
I'm on the same wavelength Daics.
We know from a conversation earlier in the year with Rodgers that the majority of pre WW2 player full names were unknown, when Rodgers began his research in the late 1980s.
It highly possible that he searched the BDM registry/pioneer index for "H Stokesbury" between 1885s-1900s and saw that the only one who was a potential match was "Hamilton Stokesbury". ( A Robert Henry Stokesbury also is born but thats in 1900, too young).
So he went with that.
And with almost no other information available then at the time about Stokesbury, there was no reason to think it was incorrect.

Once Rodgers looks at his League documents on Tuesday we will know more. I suspect it will simple show H. Stokesbury.

The added question is what year did our potential William Henry Stokesberry die?
Click to expand...
I haven't found anything about his death anywhere. It doesn't seem to be on Vic BDM. Perhaps he didn't die in Victoria. He got married in 1923 to Irene Ray Brown (Vic BDM). We do know he was alive in 1952 (when father Joe died).

Edit: 1981 in Queensland:
696790

Family history research service

www.bdm.qld.gov.au
 
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35Daicos said:
She was living at Terang when she died in 1947: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206023292
She's buried with her mother (not the husband) at Fawkner Memorial Park. The last name appears to be ****, not Cook.

He's mighty hard to find anywhere, but the croucher's post has probably identified the correct chap.
Click to expand...

On electoral rolls via Ancestry, Stewart's name appears in Terang sub-district for electorate of Corangamite from the 1920s until the 1963 E.R. with occupation usually shown as "dairyman." Elsie is usually shown at same address until her death. Her death notice reads as if they were still together at the time, so finding him at same address for years after that is not unexpected.

He does not appear to be listed in that electorate for 1967. Nor can I find any entry for him after that date on the Ancestry indexes
(not known for catching 100% of names, but realistically a pretty accurate source i think).

Tried Ryerson Index - no entry found.

Unfortunately the local council/cemeteries trust in that area of Victoria hasn't been able/not inclined to..? release burials & cremation records for history researchers.
 
I'm slowly working through the new digitised Richmond Guardians of 1913- 1915, hence you may get a couple of queries along the way like the earlier Ray Stewart.
I think it was the croucher I spoke to earlier this year suggesting that because Rodgers in many cases made educated guesses on pre WW player full names/dob - there could be hundreds that need to change, and that one day we might just have to go one by one through each player.
Atm I'm focussing on Richmond players who played 1913-15 season and say under 15 games or so (and not at any other club)
 
rbartlett said:
I'm slowly working through the new digitised Richmond Guardians of 1913- 1915, hence you may get a couple of queries along the way like the earlier Ray Stewart.
I think it was the croucher I spoke to earlier this year suggesting that because Rodgers in many cases made educated guesses on pre WW player full names/dob - there could be hundreds that need to change, and that one day we might just have to go one by one through each player.
Atm I'm focussing on Richmond players who played 1913-15 season and say under 15 games or so (and not at any other club)
Click to expand...

Yes, I remember that. Think there might have been a comment passed that Rodgers may well have felt under pressure to
"leave no blanks."
 
I dont think anybody blames Rodgers . For me its more the lack of resources he works under.

Throw some money at some volunteers for printing or certificate purchase (when absolutely required) or Subscriptions to Genealogy sites like Ancestry and FindMyPast etc
 
the croucher said:
Yes, I remember that. Think there might have been a comment passed that Rodgers may well have felt under pressure to
"leave no blanks."
Click to expand...

That's true. In an ideal world we would love a history that is 100% complete, but that will never happen. We can only work with what we have (and what he had back then was I think the Pioneers Index and BDM. So not much at all). Onwards and upwards!
 
Scrap all that

This suggests Stewart was from Williamstown

RICHMOND LAST QUARTER. - FITZROY EXTENDED. - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 31 May 1915

For the first three quarters of the game between Richmond and Fitzroy, at Richmond, there secmed to be no doubt as to the ultimate issue of the straggle. Though the general play was more even ...
nla.gov.au

Richmond, for having struck King, of
Fitzroy. In Fitzroy's ranks Cooper and Stone re-
placed Patterson and Smith. Stewart, from Wil-
Fix this textliamstown, played his first match with Richmond,
 
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Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records


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