Conspiracy Theory Robodebt Scam

[Kurve]

Catherine Holmes commented through the inquiry of "a conspiracy to cover up" within the ruling government and the public service.

After a ten month investigation and a Royal Commission, and in a sum of the complete lack of a moral compass that surrounded the flawed and illegal scheme, Commissioner Catherine Holmes noted how “truly dismaying was the revelation of dishonesty and collusion to prevent the scheme’s lack of legal foundation coming to light”. She went on to condemn Robodebt as an "extraordinary saga of venality, incompetence, and cowardice".

The Commissioner, with her findings, provided a sealed section with recommendations for civil claims and criminal prosecutions and referrals to anti corruption bodies. The former Prime Minister Scott Morrison's name is suspected to be in it.

https://robodebt.royalcommission.gov.au/publications/report

The Robodebt Royal Commission has exposed an insidious and illegal scheme that turned the machinery of an entire government against its own people. The plan was to raise billions from welfare recipients by convincing them they had fake debts. The debt was calculated using income averaging.

Across departments and through legal advices that were buried, they all knew that not only was accuracy impossible using income averaging but that the scheme was illegal.

Those who imagined, designed and delivered it, put their personal ambition above all.

It began in late 2016, when over 100,000 people were issued with welfare debts stretching back years. Nearly 500,000 were targeted. Unless a victim could prove they didn't owe the money, they were essentially guilty and their debt was passed on to a debt collector, with added fees.

If not prompt in responding, and if the AFP logo on a Centrelink notice wasn't enough to frighten people, Alan Tudge's response to victims attempts to generate public awareness, probably did. Tudge released their personal details to the press and stated they risk jail if the debts weren't paid. This, according to Tudge's media adviser Rachelle Miller, was seen as a successful strategy to silence them. Many people paid it, knowing they did not owe it. Some are known to have become so overwhelmed they suicided.

The government has paid back this far, $1.8 billion in refunds and compensation.

There's a lot of material out there and a decent podcast.

Episodes

A daily news podcast from Schwartz Media and *The Saturday Paper*. Hear from the country’s best reporters, covering the news as it affects Australia.

7ampodcast.com.au

Mention of a conspiracy to cover up is in here:



Truly disgusting how many could have put a stop to this but carried on knowing it was wrong.

 

[BFew]

She went on to condemn Robodebt as an "extraordinary saga of venality, incompetence, and cowardice".

Venality is very strong word to use by the RC Commissioner.
Criminal and Civil lawsuit indicative.

Definition of VENAL

capable of being bought or obtained for money or other valuable consideration : purchasable; especially : open to corrupt influence and especially bribery : mercenary; originating in, characterized by, or associated with corrupt bribery… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

'venal adjective​

Synonyms of venal
1
: capable of being bought or obtained for money or other valuable consideration : PURCHASABLE
especially : open to corrupt influence and especially bribery : MERCENARY
a venal legislator

2
: originating in, characterized by, or associated with corrupt bribery
a venal arrangement with the police

venality noun
venally adverb'

 

[BFew]

I look forwards to a dedicated thread for this on the BigFooty Crime boards one day, when/if any charges are laid or civil legal action goes ahead.

 

[Kurve]

I look forwards to a dedicated thread for this on the BigFooty Crime boards one day, when/if any charges are laid or civil legal action goes ahead.

Holmes also said it was "the most appalling act of malfeasance in public office I've ever seen" and also mentioned the tort of misfeasance with regard to civil claims.

Whatever is the difference between malfeasance and misfeasance, but they both sound evil.

 

[BFew]

In late 2016, over 100,000 people were issued with welfare debts stretching back years. Nearly 500,000 were targeted. Unless a victim could prove they didn't owe the money, they were essentially guilty and their debt was passed on to a debt collector, with added fees.

Did this 500,000 include all those that were sent Robodebt related letters from Centrelink asking them to provide Centrelink with payslips and/or bank statements for specific periods of employment from years gone by, before any debt notices/letters were issued?

 

[Kurve]

Did this 500,000 include all those that were sent Robodebt related letters from Centrelink asking them to provide Centrelink with payslips and/or bank statements for specific periods of employment from years gone by, before any debt notices/letters were issued?

Yes I believe so.

 

[Kurve]

Did this 500,000 include all those that were sent Robodebt related letters from Centrelink asking them to provide Centrelink with payslips and/or bank statements for specific periods of employment from years gone by, before any debt notices/letters were issued?

First I think they got a warning letter and asked to log in to an app, then their pay was averaged, bingo a big debt was created?

 

[Kurve]

Did this 500,000 include all those that were sent Robodebt related letters from Centrelink asking them to provide Centrelink with payslips and/or bank statements for specific periods of employment from years gone by, before any debt notices/letters were issued?

Not sure actually. I need to find the hearing day that was examined.

 

[ParapMarkets]

Catherine Holmes commented through the inquiry of "a conspiracy to cover up" within the ruling government and the public service.

After a ten month investigation and a Royal Commission, and in a sum of the complete lack of a moral compass that surrounded the flawed and illegal scheme, Commissioner Catherine Holmes noted how “truly dismaying was the revelation of dishonesty and collusion to prevent the scheme’s lack of legal foundation coming to light”. She went on to condemn Robodebt as an "extraordinary saga of venality, incompetence, and cowardice".

The Commissioner, with her findings, provided a sealed section with recommendations for civil claims and criminal prosecutions and referrals to anti corruption bodies. The former Prime Minister Scott Morrison's name is suspected to be in it.

https://robodebt.royalcommission.gov.au/publications/report

The Robodebt Royal Commission has exposed an insidious and illegal scheme that turned the machinery of an entire government against its own people. The plan was to raise billions from welfare recipients by convincing them they had fake debts. The debt was calculated using income averaging.

Across departments and through legal advices that were buried, they all knew that not only was accuracy impossible using income averaging but that the scheme was illegal.

Those who imagined designed and delivered it put their personal ambition above all.

In late 2016, over 100,000 people were issued with welfare debts stretching back years. Nearly 500,000 were targeted. Unless a victim could prove they didn't owe the money, they were essentially guilty and their debt was passed on to a debt collector, with added fees.

If not prompt in responding, and if the AFP logo on the Centrelink demand notice wasn't enough to frighten them, Alan Tudge's response to victims attempts to generate public awareness, probably did. Tudge released their personal details to the press and stated they risk jail if the debts weren't paid. This, according to Tudge's media adviser Rachelle Miller, was seen as a successful strategy to silence them. Many people paid it, knowing they did not owe it. Some are known to have become so overwhelmed they suicided.

The government has paid back this far, $1.8 billion in refunds and compensation.

There's a lot of material out there and a decent podcast.

Episodes

A daily news podcast from Schwartz Media and *The Saturday Paper*. Hear from the country’s best reporters, covering the news as it affects Australia.

7ampodcast.com.au

Mention of a conspiracy to cover up is in here:



Truly disgusting how many could have put a stop to this but carried on knowing it was wrong.

It’s yet another example of why people need to be jumping up and down about this new Misinformation Bill. Dealing with the government can be brutal, we can’t be allowing them to exclude themselves from spreading misinformation if they really are concerned about misinformation (they clearly aren’t concerned about misinformation, they are concerned about being called out on their lies).

 

[Kurve]

It’s yet another example of why people need to be jumping up and down about this new Misinformation Bill. Dealing with the government can be brutal, we can’t be allowing them to exclude themselves from spreading misinformation if they really are concerned about misinformation (they clearly aren’t concerned about misinformation, they are concerned about being called out on their lies).

You're getting mixed up.

The Commissioner's findings are actually an example that for once, it looks like the system might have worked and heads should roll over it. $1.8 billion was returned to the victims of Robodebt.

 

[Kurve]

A couple of years ago, the Dutch government wrongly accused 20,000 families of fraudulently claiming child allowance in their own scheme. The government had to resign in disgrace.

Our government victimised over 400,000 Australians.

The cabinet’s resignation came after a damning parliamentary report, Unprecedented Injustice, was published last month, which concluded that “fundamental principles of the rule of law had been violated”.

Dutch government resigns over child benefits scandal

PM Mark Rutte will stay on in caretaker capacity until general elections scheduled for 17 March

www.theguardian.com

 

[BFew]

A couple of years ago, the Dutch government wrongly accused 20,000 families of fraudulently claiming child allowance in their own scheme. The entire government cabinet had to resign in disgrace.

Our government victimised over 400,000 Australians.

The cabinet’s resignation came after a damning parliamentary report, Unprecedented Injustice, was published last month, which concluded that “fundamental principles of the rule of law had been violated”.

Dutch government resigns over child benefits scandal

PM Mark Rutte will stay on in caretaker capacity until general elections scheduled for 17 March

www.theguardian.com

Dutch Courage.

Australian Crawl.

 

[BFew]

Not sure actually. I need to find the hearing day that was examined.

Robodebt: government to refund 470,000 unlawful Centrelink debts worth $721m

Debts raised under the Coalition’s unlawful income-averaging scheme will start to be repaid in July

www.theguardian.com

'Robodebt: government to refund 470,000 unlawful Centrelink debts worth $721m'​

'the government said on Friday it would repay 470,000 debts that were entirely or partially raised using the discredited “income-averaging” calculations.
Stuart Robert, the government services minister, said the refunds would be received by 373,000 people, cost a total $721m and would include recovery fee charges.'

If only 500,000 ppl were targeted with Robodebt 'compliance interventions', and 373,000 people who had paid one or more Robodebt debts, were refunded all of the debt $$$ they had already paid in part or full, that leaves only 127,000 people who were targeted by being sent the initial Robodebt scam letters, and who for one reason or another either

• never had a Robodebt debt notice after being sent the initial Robodebt letter
• never paid a Robodebt where one was raised
• or never had a debt garnished from either their other Government Benefits, ATO refunds, wages, bank accounts, or repossession or 'theft' of goods or properties by debt collectors acting on behalf of Centrelink and the Federal Government.

Given that on 17 June 2015 Morrison told parliament

Robodebt: five years of lies, mistakes and failures that caused a $1.8bn scandal

The royal commission ended on Friday, having heard shocking testimony from officials and politicians, and heart-rending accounts of the impact of the botched scheme

www.theguardian.com

'On 17 June 2015, Morrison told parliament a new “welfare cop on the beat” would increase the “number of fraud investigations and compliance interventions by over 900,000 over four years”, saving $1.8bn.
“We will be stopping the rorts,” he said.'
I suspect that the Abbott/Turnbull/Morrison LNP Federal Government (via Centrelink), sent out around well over 500,000 'initial letters' that were autogenerated based on lots of incorrect ATO information, and illegal income averaging (that did not reflect the way that most Centrelink benefits were calculated and paid, as required by the Social Security Act, and detailed on the Centrelink public website).

Robodebt letters (prior to the actual Robodebt debt letters) were referred to as "the initial letter" in the Royal Commission final report, and titled as 'Employment Income Confirmation', in the version I received in later 2017, and probably titled in subsequent iterations, as either
'Online Compliance Intervention' (July 2016 - Feb 2017)
'Check and Update Past Information' (Oct 2018 - Nov 2019)

p39 of the Royal Commission Report

https://robodebt.royalcommission.gov.au/system/files/2023-07/report_of-the-royal-commission-into-the-robodebt-scheme.pdf

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

First I think they got a warning letter and asked to log in to an app, then their pay was averaged, bingo a big debt was created?

I got a phone call, and told the debt was raised. A letter appeared in mygov the same day. On mentioning an appeal, I was told the debt would be sent to the collectors within two weeks. Any appeal would take months sitting in the queue.
Almost $3500 overpayment for a period in which Centrelink had a few years prior paid me exactly $0.

 

[BFew]

I've just raised myself from well over 500,000 ppl targeted, to closer to 750,000 ppl targeted, assuming that for every person there was an average of more than one potential/scam discrepancies. (based on a review of 1 million discrepancies from 1 July 2015 - 31 Aug 2019 as per the below)

https://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/download/committees/reportsen/024846/toc_pdf/AccountabilityandjusticeWhyweneedaRoyalCommissionintoRobodebt.pdf;fileType=application%2Fpdf

Accountability and justice: Why we need a Royal Commission into Robodebt​

May 2022
© Commonwealth of Australia 2022

'The following table provides an overview of key events related to the Income Compliance Program:
Table 1.1: Key events related to the Income Compliance Program
...

20 September 2019

Services Australia confirms that from 1 July 2015, it had completed 1 million reviews of discrepancies, finding 734 000 overpayments with a total value of around $2 billion.31

...

• 31 Services Australia, Submission 20, p. 4.'

Submissions received by the Committee​

...

20	Services Australia (Department of Human Services) (PDF 3989 KB)

AUSTRALIAN GOVERNMENT
SERVICES AUSTRALIA
INCOME COMPLIANCE PROGRAMME
SUBMISSION TO THE SENATE COMMUNITY AFFAIRS REFERENCES COMMITTEE
Centrelink's compliance program Submission

 

[Kurve]

.

I got a phone call, and told the debt was raised. A letter appeared in mygov the same day. On mentioning an appeal, I was told the debt would be sent to the collectors within two weeks. Any appeal would take months sitting in the queue.
Almost $3500 overpayment for a period in which Centrelink had a few years prior paid me exactly $0.

It's almost beyond belief that they actually got away with doing this for four years. I hope it's all been sorted out for you and that if you paid, it's been given back to you with interest and compensation.

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

.


It's almost beyond belief that they actually got away with doing this for four years. I hope it's all been sorted out for you and that if you paid, it's been given back to you with interest and compensation.

I was lucky in that I had the cash, having been out of the system for a couple of years by that stage. That was probably part of why they were so keen to send it to the collectors so quickly. I pretty much had to pay, I was in a very deep depression already at the time. The appeals process, or just dealing with Centrelink at all, may have been too much.
I got it back with the class action.

 

[Mofra]

I was lucky in that I had the cash, having been out of the system for a couple of years by that stage. That was probably part of why they were so keen to send it to the collectors so quickly. I pretty much had to pay, I was in a very deep depression already at the time. The appeals process, or just dealing with Centrelink at all, may have been too much.
I got it back with the class action.

It's s**t you had to go through that.
Did you get any interest or punitive payments, or just the money you paid?

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

It's s**t you had to go through that.
Did you get any interest or punitive payments, or just the money you paid?

I would need to look again to be sure, I think it was a little more than just the base plus interest.

 

[BFew]

I'm looking forwards to a share of any future Robodebt class action, compensation or ex-gratia payment for my wasted time, and stress in dealing with the initial Robodebt letter, and the years of stress and uncertainty of now knowing whether Centrelink were going to issue me with a debt thereafter, or whether I would suddenly get a knock on the door, or find money had been garnished for a debt to Centrelink in relation to the initial letter, which was not only a scam, but a piece of fiction when it came to employment dates listed on it.

I wasn't eligible in the original/only successful class action because there was no debt raised (i was aware of, or every chased up for thereafter dealing with the initial Robodebt letter by providing Centrelink with the information requested).

I assume at some point Centrelink will formally send an apology to ppl like myself, and explain why the employment dates were so far out, and whose fault that was: ATO, employer, Centrelink, a Centrelink staff member, Centrelink supplier, Ministers, Ministers staffers, myself, or all of the above!

 

[Kurve]

Thinking about this, an old friend rang me a while ago and said he got caught cheating welfare which I was astonished about because it just didn't sound like him, he ended up with a conviction and a community based order. He pleaded guilty and said he could have been jailed for it. He was embarrassed about it so I didn't prolong it by asking a lot of pokey questions.

I bet it was Robodebt and due to his nature, he just accepted he must have done the wrong thing.

 

[BFew]

Thinking about this, an old friend rang me a while ago and said he got caught cheating welfare which I was astonished about because it just didn't sound like him, he ended up with a conviction and a community based order. He pleaded guilty and said he could have been jailed for it. He was embarrassed about it so I didn't prolong it by asking a lot of pokey questions.

I bet it was Robodebt and due to his nature, he just accepted he must have done the wrong thing.

I had not considered whether anyone that was hit with a Robodebt was charged/convicted as a result of this.
Nothing in the Royal Commission Report about any Centrelink customer being charged or convicted for a Robodebt.

That the report is silent on this matter, suggests that it was out of scope to investigate or report on, and that possibly for privacy reasons of the individuals that might have been charged or convicted. Especially for those (if any) that were charged or convicted did not do anything wrong.

Alan Tudge claims prison threat for Centrelink debt dodgers was 'taken out of context'

9now.nine.com.au

Alan Tudge claims prison threat for Centrelink debt dodgers was 'taken out of context'​

By Pippa Bradshaw|6 months ago
...
A Current Affair ran a story in December 2016 on the government's welfare payment crackdown where the then-minister was quoted saying: "We will find you, we will track you down, you will have to repay those debts and you may end up in prison."

From the below, it looks like Tudge was trying to downplay his and his Government's culpability in Robodebt, by making it look more like mass inadvertent overpayments, as opposed to mass welfare fraud.

Did the Commission in accepting what Tudge says occurred (that he made the statement in response to a question by the interviewer about his message for persons who intentionally defraud the Commonwealth, and that the program did not show the question that had been put to him to elicit that response),
did the Commission actually see video of the question that was claimedly not aired, or are they just taking Tudges (and possibly Ch9's word for it?)

https://robodebt.royalcommission.gov.au/system/files/2023-07/report_of-the-royal-commission-into-the-robodebt-scheme.pdf

'...
Mr Tudge appeared on TV’s A Current Affair in a segment on welfare debt, dealing with some of the measures that had been implemented by the department, including the “new automated system” and the “welfare debt recovery squad.”

The segment opened with Mr Tudge stating: We will find you, we will track you down, and you will have to repay those debts, and you may end up in prison.

The comment drew immediate criticism, including from the Chief Executive Officer or the Australian Council of Social Service (ACOSS), Dr Cassandra Goldie AO, who described the comment as “appalling,” “false” and “highly irresponsible.”

Mr Tudge’s evidence before the Commission was that he made the statement in response to a question by the interviewer about his message for persons who intentionally defraud the Commonwealth, and that the program did not show the question that had been put to him to elicit that response.

The Commission accepts that this was what occurred. However, the circumstances in which Mr Tudge’s comment was made, and publicly portrayed, were symptomatic of the larger issues with the public rhetoric with respect to the welfare system, and welfare recipients, and the associated media reporting.

It was well known that there was often conflation of the concepts of welfare fraud and inadvertent overpayment in the media.

At the very least, there was a tendency not to make an explicit distinction between the two. The Commission heard evidence including from ACOSS, a departmental media manager, and Mr Tudge himself that this conflation occurred.

In Dr Goldie’s experience, many people who were dealing with the department did not know the difference between welfare fraud and overpayments, and were confused about whether or not they were being accused of something criminal.

A failure to clearly distinguish between the two concepts in public messaging served to fuel that confusion.

Both DHS and Mr Tudge were aware that sufficient clarity of communication was required to draw the distinction between the concepts, and to overcome the conflation that commonly occurred.

Regardless of Mr Tudge’s intention with respect to his messaging, the segment on A Current Affair did not make the distinction between fraud and inadvertent overpayment with any degree of clarity, and the story had conflated the two concepts.

So much so was accepted by Mr Tudge. Over a month later, on 11 January 2017, Mr Tudge took part in an interview on the ABC’s Radio National in which he explained that his comment on A Current Affair was specifically directed towards circumstances of fraud, and not inadvertent overpayment.

Mr Tudge did not issue a media statement to clarify the distinction between fraud and inadvertent overpayment because it was not his practice to do so, and he did not think a press release would have the same impact as doing a segment on A Current Affair.

He acknowledged that he “could have gone further” in media interviews to clarify that fraud represented a very small part of welfare compliance. Mr Tudge knew that conflation of fraud and inadvertent overpayment occurred, most specifically from his experience with respect to the segment on A Current Affair.

He knew that fraud represented a very small proportion of welfare compliance. Despite this, he took no action to issue a media release to clarify and emphasise the distinction between fraud and inadvertent overpayment, and he did nothing to draw attention to the fact that fraud represented a very small part of welfare compliance.
...'

 

[Kurve]

I had not considered whether anyone that was hit with a Robodebt was charged/convicted as a result of this.
Nothing in the Royal Commission Report about any Centrelink customer being charged or convicted for a Robodebt.

There was a mention of convictions but I can't remember where I saw it and didn't immediately think of this old friend. I'll try and find it.