Are we team-orientated?

nut · Jul 5, 2008

Just watching how medhurst has turned his game around at the pies, quite amazing. He has gone from a goal hungry selfish forward to an important bit player that is prepared to sacrifice his game for the side.

I get the feeling that a lot of our players... I wont mention any names... seem to be playing for possessions and important stats rather than their team mates. Could this be a cultural flaw at our club.

We are a side that doesn't shepherd at all, instead try to run off and create rather ( and get aanother possesion) than stay and help a player in trouble. Do we have fundamental problems in this area??

Did anyone notice how weird it looked when Cotchin laid a couple of shepherds?

Strawbs · Jul 5, 2008

Nut, I have noticed the odd example of self-preservation. Having a shot rather than giving it off, that sort of thing. Watched the Cats last night - they give it off at every opportunity. Having said that, they get incredible numbers to the ball, so they have numerous options. As for shepherds, maybe it's a matter of developing those skinny frames so that we can really hurt the opposition when the opportunity arises. But, yeah, got to lay a body on when necessary. (Another example of how much we miss Coughlan).

anti. · Jul 5, 2008

nut · Jul 6, 2008

anti. said:
Nut.

????yes

1980 · Jul 6, 2008

Its been our curse since 1982.

1980GFVideo · Jul 6, 2008

anti. said:
Nut.

Well done on identifying the Opening Poster. We would have never have figured it out. Can you tell me who I am?

Richmonds problem is...

1)Loses its chances of finals contention early in the season constantly.

2)Finds itself in situations where significant culls of the list have been looming because of being at the bottom.

This has meant that blokes have had to be concious of saving thier own hides rather than ever pushing for meaningful team success.

Think of the number of games we have played in these situtations.

Nothing on the line team wise but a hell of a lot individual wise.

We look for individual improvements to justify improvement over team success so much that this individual preference over team is unavoidable.

At the end of the day, if the rewards of finals is not present then the individual rewards such as good contracts and B & Fs are all you have to play for.

Too many of our so called good players have not had that team ethic that will surge through the team through to the younger players.

I worry about Cotchin.

I hope to hell he doesnt take after those senior blokes that he is being told by the club are club legends.

Strawbs · Jul 6, 2008

1980GFVideo said:
Well done on identifying the Opening Poster. We would have never have figured it out. Can you tell me who I am?

Richmonds problem is...

1)Loses its chances of finals contention early in the season constantly.

2)Finds itself in situations where significant culls of the list have been looming because of being at the bottom.

This has meant that blokes have had to be concious of saving thier own hides rather than ever pushing for meaningful team success.

Think of the number of games we have played in these situtations.

Nothing on the line team wise but a hell of a lot individual wise.

We look for individual improvements to justify improvement over team success so much that this individual preference over team is unavoidable.

At the end of the day, if the rewards of finals is not present then the individual rewards such as good contracts and B & Fs are all you have to play for.

Too many of our so called good players have not had that team ethic that will surge through the team through to the younger players.

I worry about Cotchin.

I hope to hell he doesnt take after those senior blokes that he is being told by the club are club legends.

Who do you mean 1980? Would be surprised if the club is telling Cotch that.

anti. · Jul 6, 2008

1980GFVideo.

nut · Jul 6, 2008

1980GFVideo said:
Well done on identifying the Opening Poster. We would have never have figured it out. Can you tell me who I am?

Richmonds problem is...

1)Loses its chances of finals contention early in the season constantly.

2)Finds itself in situations where significant culls of the list have been looming because of being at the bottom.

This has meant that blokes have had to be concious of saving thier own hides rather than ever pushing for meaningful team success.

Think of the number of games we have played in these situtations.

Nothing on the line team wise but a hell of a lot individual wise.

We look for individual improvements to justify improvement over team success so much that this individual preference over team is unavoidable.

At the end of the day, if the rewards of finals is not present then the individual rewards such as good contracts and B & Fs are all you have to play for.

Too many of our so called good players have not had that team ethic that will surge through the team through to the younger players.

I worry about Cotchin.

I hope to hell he doesnt take after those senior blokes that he is being told by the club are club legends.

Sounds about right....

Croat tiger · Jul 6, 2008

nut said:
Just watching how medhurst has turned his game around at the pies, quite amazing. He has gone from a goal hungry selfish forward to an important bit player that is prepared to sacrifice his game for the side.

I get the feeling that a lot of our players... I wont mention any names... seem to be playing for possessions and important stats rather than their team mates. Could this be a cultural flaw at our club.

We are a side that doesn't shepherd at all, instead try to run off and create rather ( and get aanother possesion) than stay and help a player in trouble. Do we have fundamental problems in this area??

Did anyone notice how weird it looked when Cotchin laid a couple of shepherds?

I think back in 95 when northey was coach we were team orientated and played for each other but I haven't seen it since.

tigers_of_old_08 · Jul 6, 2008

tigerboyz said:
I think back in 95 when northey was coach we were team orientated and played for each other but I haven't seen it since.

I loved the way Northy coached and the way we played as a team when he coached..those were the days....!

But a valid point was made in regards to our younger players - they need to get a bit of muscle on them to shepherd effectively. Although there's nothing stopping them now from runing in numbers!(yup, refer to our 1980 GF)

Sixtyseven · Jul 6, 2008

nut said:
I get the feeling that a lot of our players... I wont mention any names... seem to be playing for possessions and important stats rather than their team mates. Could this be a cultural flaw at our club.

Did anyone notice how weird it looked when Cotchin laid a couple of shepherds?

Has been a cultural flaw for years and still is. It's called a lack of any sense of team!

We have far too mnay players who are selfish and play as individuals. Nathan Brown is one of these. These types of players have a bad influence on younger players. Right now, Cotchin is taking a different approach based on being a team-player and that is what sets him apart from so many others in our side.

But just watch as we try to change his approach to suit our way of doing things. That is, unless personnel and things change dramatically around Punt Road.

_RT_ · Jul 6, 2008

tigers_of_old_08 said:
I loved the way Northy coached and the way we played as a team when he coached..those were the days....!

But a valid point was made in regards to our younger players - they need to get a bit of muscle on them to shepherd effectively. Although there's nothing stopping them now from runing in numbers!(yup, refer to our 1980 GF)

You don't need to be a ball of muscle to shepherd, just putting your body in between your team mate and the opposition has the same effect. If you cause the chaser to take 3-4 steps more to get around you it gives the player with the ball that extra bit of time to deliver. Our players don't even do that.

In regards to other team oriented football, there is still way to much 'me first' football being displayed by senior members of our side. Still can go to games and watch senior players get shitty if their lead is not acknowledged, still watch senior players berate younger players for making mistakes while seemingly not caring when they make the same mistake a few minutes later.

tora tora tora · Jul 6, 2008

Sixtyseven said:
Has been a cultural flaw for years and still is. It's called a lack of any sense of team!

We have far too mnay players who are selfish and play as individuals. Nathan Brown is one of these. These types of players have a bad influence on younger players. Right now, Cotchin is taking a different approach based on being a team-player and that is what sets him apart from so many others in our side.

But just watch as we try to change his approach to suit our way of doing things. That is, unless personnel and things change dramatically around Punt Road.

richo used to be a selfish player, but has genuinely reinvented himself this year and I now like him in the team. Prior to this year he was way over rated. How many more years has he got in him? Probably play next year and get to 300 games then retire.

i'm liking brown less and less over the last few weeks. if he get back to kicking 3 or 4 a week then i'll forgive that selfishness . Cos I think the job of a small fwd is to be goal hungry

bowden? gets the ball a lot and generally uses it ok. Of richo, brown and bowden i think bowden has got the most 'leadership'

mattdwyer · Jul 6, 2008

Nope

sante · Jul 6, 2008

It was brought up on Footy Classified a few weeks back and its something the club has addressed, the younger players are certainly bringing to their game, the seniors are not.

IDGAF · Jul 6, 2008

i genuinely worry about Cotchin myself Nut ... if any club in the league can turn potential into "Mediocrity" quicker than you can say Justin Pickering its us ..

Funny how something that Glen Arhcher said on "Footy Classified" a couple of weeks ago has gained f..k all airplay on this board ... i would have thought it be a big topic of discussion myself ... the root of all our problems ... if you will

They were discussing Richmond and Archer said that ..... "There is a very widely held view amongst football circles that when you apply genuine physical and mental pressure to Richmond the game plan goes out the window and they start playing for themslves and self preservation comes to the for"

This from a bloke who routinely @rse-r*ped the Cho for a decade and almost single-handedly destroyed us mentally

You know what Arch ? .. bang on the money . You only have to see the game against Carlton last week ... They raised the bar in the last quarter last week and we stopped running and working ... the pressure came on and we shut up shop instead of knuckling down .

This thread could so easily head down the same old "Bowden" ..etc. path and who could really be effed ... fact is thats when leadership comes into play .. when you are challeged that where experience come into play to stop the rot ... but we all know what routinely happens

...

in answer Nut ... yes .. we are a selfish team more interested in stats and self-preservation , that is how we are judged by our peers .. and until we can grow our own kids who have the minerals to grab the thing by the balls themselves and lead the way we will always be rowing the same boat .

sante · Jul 6, 2008

IDGAF said:
i genuinely worry about Cotchin myself Nut ... if any club in the league can turn potential into "Mediocrity" quicker than you can say Justin Pickering its us ..

Funny how something that Glen Arhcher said on "Footy Classified" a couple of weeks ago has gained f..k all airplay on this board ... i would have thought it be a big topic of discussion myself ... the root of all our problems ... if you will

They were discussing Richmond and Archer said that ..... "There is a very widely held view amongst football circles that when you apply genuine physical and mental pressure to Richmond the game plan goes out the window and they start playing for themslves and self preservation comes to the for"

This from a bloke who routinely @rse-r*ped the Cho for a decade and almost single-handedly destroyed us mentally

You know what Arch ? .. bang on the money . You only have to see the game against Carlton last week ... They raised the bar in the last quarter last week and we stopped running and working ... the pressure came on and we shut up shop instead of knuckling down .

This thread could so easily head down the same old "Bowden" ..etc. path and who could really be effed ... fact is thats when leadership comes into play .. when you are challeged that where experience come into play to stop the rot ... but we all know what routinely happens ...

in answer Nut ... yes .. we are a selfish team more interested in stats and self-preservation , that is how we are judged by our peers .. and until we can grow our own kids who have the minerals to grab the thing by the balls themselves and lead the way we will always be rowing the same boat .

Spot on, thats what I was leading to in the post above yours.

What does encourage me is that the younger players haven't showed these signs (except for folding under pressure, but that happens when the leaders don't lead). Players like Moore, White, Riewoldt, Tambling etc will pat players on the back after an effort/mistake, players like Bowden, Johnson, Richo just run off.

Mario Speedwagon · Jul 6, 2008

IDGAF said:
i genuinely worry about Cotchin myself Nut ... if any club in the league can turn potential into "Mediocrity" quicker than you can say Justin Pickering its us ..

.

Exactly ...Save Cotchin - Sack Wallace and his staff , delist Bowden, Johnson.....and at least keep the likes of Richo the f**k away from him....

mhill · Jul 6, 2008

1980GFVideo said:
Well done on identifying the Opening Poster. We would have never have figured it out. Can you tell me who I am?

Richmonds problem is...

1)Loses its chances of finals contention early in the season constantly.

2)Finds itself in situations where significant culls of the list have been looming because of being at the bottom.

This has meant that blokes have had to be concious of saving thier own hides rather than ever pushing for meaningful team success.

Think of the number of games we have played in these situtations.

Nothing on the line team wise but a hell of a lot individual wise.

We look for individual improvements to justify improvement over team success so much that this individual preference over team is unavoidable.

At the end of the day, if the rewards of finals is not present then the individual rewards such as good contracts and B & Fs are all you have to play for.

Too many of our so called good players have not had that team ethic that will surge through the team through to the younger players.

I worry about Cotchin.

I hope to hell he doesnt take after those senior blokes that he is being told by the club are club legends.

There are a rolling number of players in our "top 6" over the past 20 years that show an unbelievable amount of selfishness on field.

They never needed to play for a spot on our list but look at them. And it still happens.

Players have had too much power at tigerland.

Glenn Archer is right and we have known it for years. But look at what happens. Nothing.

Its a shame 'cause I don't mind our list.

nut · Jul 6, 2008

IDGAF said:
i genuinely worry about Cotchin myself Nut ... if any club in the league can turn potential into "Mediocrity" quicker than you can say Justin Pickering its us ..

Funny how something that Glen Arhcher said on "Footy Classified" a couple of weeks ago has gained f..k all airplay on this board ... i would have thought it be a big topic of discussion myself ... the root of all our problems ... if you will

They were discussing Richmond and Archer said that ..... "There is a very widely held view amongst football circles that when you apply genuine physical and mental pressure to Richmond the game plan goes out the window and they start playing for themslves and self preservation comes to the for"

This from a bloke who routinely @rse-r*ped the Cho for a decade and almost single-handedly destroyed us mentally

You know what Arch ? .. bang on the money . You only have to see the game against Carlton last week ... They raised the bar in the last quarter last week and we stopped running and working ... the pressure came on and we shut up shop instead of knuckling down .

This thread could so easily head down the same old "Bowden" ..etc. path and who could really be effed ... fact is thats when leadership comes into play .. when you are challeged that where experience come into play to stop the rot ... but we all know what routinely happens ...

in answer Nut ... yes .. we are a selfish team more interested in stats and self-preservation , that is how we are judged by our peers .. and until we can grow our own kids who have the minerals to grab the thing by the balls themselves and lead the way we will always be rowing the same boat .

thats my feeling too.... I reckon our game plan doesn't encourage our players to protect the ball carrier. And we are now so drilled our first reaction is to run off for a handball receive instead of blocking and shepherding, and this is why I believe sides are confident that they can hunt us down and apply pressure and we will cough it up. Sides like Collingwood and the Swans who instinctively hunt and apply pressure will always beat us.
I am being critical of our game plan, but I will say, when we do play with confidence and we are allowed to move the ball freely we are very good, but I dont believe it is suited to Finals football. Believe it or not I think we play a very similar style to the Hawks but they are bigger and better drilled and their game play holds up longer with them.
Sides know now we will break down at some point.

Dare I say it we are front runners that when we are on top we dont hurt the opposition on the scoreboard.

Bojangles17 · Jul 6, 2008

nut said:
Just watching how medhurst has turned his game around at the pies, quite amazing. He has gone from a goal hungry selfish forward to an important bit player that is prepared to sacrifice his game for the side.

I get the feeling that a lot of our players... I wont mention any names... seem to be playing for possessions and important stats rather than their team mates. Could this be a cultural flaw at our club.

We are a side that doesn't shepherd at all, instead try to run off and create rather ( and get aanother possesion) than stay and help a player in trouble. Do we have fundamental problems in this area??

Did anyone notice how weird it looked when Cotchin laid a couple of shepherds?

blood good observation nut, is the hallmark of malthouse coaching, not too many champions at collingwood, a good side when they need to be though and look out at finals time

IDGAF · Jul 7, 2008

nut said:
thats my feeling too.... I reckon our game plan doesn't encourage our players to protect the ball carrier. And we are now so drilled our first reaction is to run off for a handball receive instead of blocking and shepherding, and this is why I believe sides are confident that they can hunt us down and apply pressure and we will cough it up. Sides like Collingwood and the Swans who instinctively hunt and apply pressure will always beat us.

Nailed it Nut ....

That is so on the mark it aint funny

Tigertom · Jul 7, 2008

tigerboyz said:
I think back in 95 when northey was coach we were team orientated and played for each other but I haven't seen it since.

Spot on.

The boys lived and breathed with each other. Put themselves on the line for each other. Look at the premiers in the last decade and most have the same trademark of playing for each other.

Richmond could do far worse than model thier team on Northey's side. Look at the Lions threepeat for the best example.

mattdwyer · Jul 7, 2008

the young brigade are definately team players eg. riewoldt (ultimate team man) cotchin, edwards, foley, rance, mcguane, tambling, morton, hughes, deledio .... i see alot of leadership potential in riewoldt ..

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