Opinion Commentary & Media VII

[Sphynx]

you say that like he has been here over 18 months?

Sometimes 18 months is all you get.

18 months ago he would have had players lining up to come here, to take phone calls. He got Todd Viney out of retirement. He got Brett Ratten as a senior assistance.

With the racism saga gap, he was still able to lure the likes of Adcock, Barlow and Clarke in the offseason as the lure of playing under him is there.


That honeymoon period is probably over, Clarko is damaged goods now by virtue of the sides performances.

No ass. coach wants to be associated with a winless team, it will be a mark against him for most of his career.

No half decent player not looking for a payday will be coming here to a side conceding 20 goals per week.

If we keep losing like this, he will lose the playing group in 4-6 weeks and the likes of Zurhaar and LDU will be begging their managers to leave.

The board will step in at the latest after trade week with the exodus, bookmark it.

 

[big_e]

Congratulations to Nick Larkey

20

Nick Larkey

Age

25

Ht

198cm

Wt

96kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

8.5

2star

K

4.6

2star

HB

3.9

3star

M

3.3

3star

T

1.5

3star

G

1.4

5star

D

7.0

1star

K

4.0

1star

HB

3.0

2star

M

2.0

2star

T

1.0

2star

G

1.0

4star

D

8.8

3star

K

4.2

2star

HB

4.6

4star

M

3.2

4star

T

1.4

4star

G

0.8

4star

for being selected in The West Australian's Team of the Week.

At Centre Half Back.

 

[Hearts to hearts]

Clarko had complete autonomy over the transition of eras at Hawthorn, and bottled it.

He overpaid for a pack of experienced players at other clubs which took the team down, not up. Sound familiar?

Longmire transitioned recent premiers, as has Chris Scott.


He took over a club who only weeks before hand drafted Franklin, Roughead and Lewis.

Pelchen managed to trade the likes Hay, Thompson for first round picks in Clarko's first two seasons.


Clarko created a fantastic game plan with an innovative defensive zone, but Pelchen laid the ground work for those flags, Graham Wright extended it into a dynasty with the trading for Hale, Gibson, Burgoyne, Gunston and Lake.

I know all that too. We don’t have the free run at the PP drafts Hawthorn did. And we certainly don’t have the proven recruitment team to take best advantage of the picks we get.

I’m just saying the players he had didn’t arrive fully formed - he made them what they became - and the pressure of maintaining a dynasty is different to being where he is now, starting at the bottom and with full acceptance from the club that he’ll have the time and resources he needs. It’s very early days for this coaching team.

 

[Sphynx]

I know all that too. We don’t have the free run at the PP drafts Hawthorn did. And we certainly don’t have the proven recruitment team to take best advantage of the picks we get.

I’m just saying the players he had didn’t arrive fully formed - he made them what they became - and the pressure of maintaining a dynasty is different to being where he is now, starting at the bottom and with full acceptance from the club that he’ll have the time and resources he needs. It’s very early days for this coaching team.

He has as many R1 PP's as he did there on the list and he spent half of his first season away from the club and got handed 5 x R1 picks at the last draft after landing pick 2 and 4 the year prior.

He spent part of that capital on Fisher and Stephens.

His recruitment of senior players since Wright left Hawthorn at both Hawthorn and North is absolutely diabolocal.

Can't be an excuse.

 

[kirbonavich]

2 things. Both gws and essendon tried to get clarkson, we beat them. They didn't choose their respective coaches over them.

Secondly, the league gave us "PIRORITY PICKS" WE BLOODY HAD TO TRADE. We said it wouldn't work, it hasn't.

Goad, Dawson & Hardeman might turn out okay.

I do think Hardeman and Goater (If they ever get on the park together) will be a great combo.

 

[Hearts to hearts]

No it's not.

He got 5 years to rebuild at Hawthorn and decided to spend the majority of his draft capital and cap sapce in that time on Tom Mitchell, Chad Wingard, Jaeger O'Meara, Tom Scully, Tom Phillips, Jon Patton, Sam Frost and shipped off his senior premiership players (Lewis, Mitchell, Hodge, Gunston, Duryea) to other clubs to clear for their mercenary salaries.

This is his third major rebuild, of which the first one was 80% complete when he joined.

Just like here was, we've had 5 years of top picks to work with.

He's bottled 1 and successfully guided the other one with the hard yards completed by Schwabb.

Agree that the rebuild at Hawthorn was Essendonesque in its mistakes. I don’t think you are giving him enough credit for the original successful build.

Anyway, he’s our best bet now so we have to see it through.

 

[Ischenko]

No it's not.

He got 5 years to rebuild at Hawthorn and decided to spend the majority of his draft capital and cap sapce in that time on Tom Mitchell, Chad Wingard, Jaeger O'Meara, Tom Scully, Tom Phillips, Jon Patton, Sam Frost and shipped off his senior premiership players (Lewis, Mitchell, Hodge, Gunston, Duryea) to other clubs to clear for their mercenary salaries.

This is his third major rebuild, of which the first one was 80% complete when he joined.

Just like here was, we've had 5 years of top picks to work with.

He's bottled 1 and successfully guided the other one with the hard yards completed by Schwabb.

So Pelchen and Wright were responsible for all the picks and drafting and development in the first build – and Clarkson had no say – and then he had absolute dictatorial control over the second one and every decision was made by him alone. Right.

Look I'm worried too, but to completely downplay his achievements is absurd. FFS maybe we should have got Scott back, Essendon are on track for the May premiership again.

 

[Sphynx]

Agree that the rebuild at Hawthorn was Essendonesque in its mistakes. I don’t think you are giving him enough credit for the original successful build.

Anyway, he’s our best bet now so we have to see it through.

Pelchen built the original list. Graham Wright topped it up.


Pelchen recruited Franklin, Lewis, Mitchell out of the VFL and Roughead.

He sold Thompson and Hay to us for R1 picks.


Clarkson built the cluster. Clarkson recruited Guerra and Gilham from Port.

 

[Sphynx]

So Pelchen and Wright were responsible for all the picks and drafting and development in the first build – and Clarkson had no say – and then he had absolute dictatorial control over the second one and every decision was made by him alone. Right.

Look I'm worried too, but to completely downplay his achievements is absurd. FFS maybe we should have got Scott back, Essendon are on track for the May premiership again.

I never said anything about development.

I'm unsure how Clarkson could be responsible for Franklin, Roughead, Hodge, Mitchell, Lewis when they predated him at the club.

It would be akin to saying Clarko was responsible for recruiting Larkey, Comben and LDU.


In fact, they had their biggest draft bombs in the years Clarko immediately joined. Hawthorn should have had the best list in AFL history, but bombed Clarko's first two drafts there.

He could have almost had Selwood and Pendlebury in that same side.

 

[Jeremy Jordan]

No it's not.

He got 5 years to rebuild at Hawthorn and decided to spend the majority of his draft capital and cap sapce in that time on Tom Mitchell, Chad Wingard, Jaeger O'Meara, Tom Scully, Tom Phillips, Jon Patton, Sam Frost and shipped off his senior premiership players (Lewis, Mitchell, Hodge, Gunston, Duryea) to other clubs to clear for their mercenary salaries.

This is his third major rebuild, of which the first one was 80% complete when he joined.

Just like here was, we've had 5 years of top picks to work with.

He's bottled 1 and successfully guided the other one with the hard yards completed by Schwabb.

All the good things that happened at Hawthorn were because of others, and all the bad things that happened at Hawthorn were because of Clarko.

 

[Hearts to hearts]

On the bigger picture - it’s my 25th anniversary today. In 1999 my partner watched her team win the spoon and mine win the flag. Obviously since then she has enjoyed more footy highs than I have, but it’s reminded me that footy support is a long journey.

 

[Ischenko]

I'm unsure how Clarkson could be responsible for Franklin, Roughead, Hodge, Mitchell, Lewis when they predated him at the club.

I know that. You were implying that most of the work was done by others though yeah, and that Clarkson merely developed the game plan?

And that then after the dynasty he was solely responsible for all trades, drafting and development. It's not that straight-forward.

 

[LuvtheKangas]

I never said anything about development.

I'm unsure how Clarkson could be responsible for Franklin, Roughead, Hodge, Mitchell, Lewis when they predated him at the club.

It would be akin to saying Clarko was responsible for recruiting Larkey, Comben and LDU.


In fact, they had their biggest draft bombs in the years Clarko immediately joined. Hawthorn should have had the best list in AFL history, but bombed Clarko's first two drafts there.

He could have almost had Selwood and Pendlebury in that same side.

The mask has slipped fully now. Anti-Clarkson dribble as far as the eye can see.

 

[Sphynx]

All the good things that happened at Hawthorn were because of others, and all the bad things that happened at Hawthorn were because of Clarko.

Nope.

Im merely stating not everything to do with that era was because of Clarko, which people keep raising here as some automatic assurance that it will happen again.

It's not the same.

Pelchen had one of the best 3-4 years in list management history and then got replaced by one of the best list managers/recruiters of the AFL era.


Clarko created one of the most innovative defensive structures of the AFL era that turned them into a juggernaught, he developed those players into absolute superstars.


It doesn't mean lightning strikes twice, in fact it could be the absolute opposite (which is what we are seeing).

He doesn't have the same players at his disposal here, he may have also invested the worst defensive structure the AFL has ever seen. It certainly is statistically.

 

[Sphynx]

The mask has slipped fully now. Anti-Clarkson dribble as far as the eye can see.

Im sorry, what have you been watching the last 18 months?

You earn respect at our club.

It's not rolled out to you because of what you achieved at Hawthorn a decade ago.

I don't give a s**t if he's a past player, has mates at the club etc. He's done nothing to earn the respect of the fans here yet.


Go dig up the Carlton threads on Malthouse and Pagan and read them on reflection and determine if you are drinking the same kool aid.

 

[LuvtheKangas]

Im sorry, what have you been watching the last 18 months?

You earn respect at our club.

It's not rolled out to you because of what you achieved at Hawthorn a decade ago.

I don't give a s**t if he's a past player, has mates at the club etc. He's done nothing to earnt the respect of the fans here yet.


Go dig up the Carlton threads on Malthouse and Pagan and read them on reflection and determine if you are drinking the same kool aid.

I'm reacting to the fact that you've taken an unfair set against him, and now you've made up sh!t to fit your bias against him.

What did Pelchen do before he was at Hawthorn? What has Pelchen done since he was at Hawthorn? The answer is sweet FA, but you put him up as some recruiting / tactical God - which no-one else has ever suggested of him - so you can take away any credit earned by Clarko. This line of arguing is disingenuous crap.

Of course the past 18 months, plus the 3 years before (sensing a pattern here? a pre-Clarko pattern?), have been terrible to watch. But equally terrible are the personal attacks against only one party who holds a share of the responsibility. Especially when the attacks involve denying the past achievements of said person to fit your biased agenda.

 

[Sphynx]

I'm reacting to the fact that you've taken an unfair set against him, and now you've made up sh!t to fit your bias against him.

What did Pelchen do before he was at Hawthorn? What has Pelchen done since he was at Hawthorn? The answer is sweet FA, but you put him up as some recruiting / tactical God - which no-ne else has ever suggested of him - so you can take away any credit earned by Clarko. This line of arguing is disingenuous crap.

Of course the past 18 months, plus the 3 years before (sensing a pattern here? a pre-Clarko pattern?), have been terrible to watch. But equally terrible are the personal attacks against only one party who holds a share of the responsibility. Especially when the attacks involve denying the past achievements of said person to fit your biased agenda.

You realize Pelchen was one of the main architects of Port Adelaides early 2000's side including their 2004 flag right? He had plenty of runs on the board before he joined Hawthorn. He built their side from the inaugural side in 1997.

Prior to that he was a scout and recruiter at Hawthorn from 1982-1996. They had a pretty good team if I recall during that period...

He was moved on from Hawthorn the first time because he was adamant they had to go hard at a rebuild following 1992 under the draft system. He joined Port, the rest is history there...

Pelchen then joined Hawthorn (again) the very next season after Port's flag.


He's attributed with introducing analytics into AFL in list management drafting, particularly with rating systems and building statistical models of what a premiership footballer is in each position based on 10-20 years of data he had access to in the mid 00's. During his last few years at Port and Hawthorn.

Then determining probabilities of players fitting these statistical profiles for recruitment.

He pulled off some of the biggest trade heists in history (at our expense) during that period.

He recruited a key core of the Hawthorn dynasty team under this model.


He was a complete ******* of a bloke and got run out of footy because of his personality and methods.


Doesn't change the fact he will be considered one of the modern trailblazers at it and one of the best ever.

How many recruiters have a resume of 80's Hawthorn, Port 97-2004 and Hawthorn's 3 peats?



Greg Miller did absolutely heck all after North Melbourne, doesn't change he's one of the best recruiters in AFL/VFL history.

 

[Psi-Roos]

Lol at those saying "we got 5 first round picks last year"....

3 of those players havent even played. One of them was only barely an adult. and they are meant to change our fortunes in 6 games?

Youre dreaming.

How bout when those 5 first round picks develop we bring them in to the conversation. Right now, those picks have no bearing on our circumstance.

Our current issues are the result of constantly changing coaches, poor development under Gavin Brown and Bradys poor drafting Pre Clarkson and players that are at times, coasting.

Is Clarkson the messiah? Probably not. But he was the best option we had at the time when you were frothing to sack Noble.

Leys ride with a coach for more than a hand full of games before burning yet another

 

[The Dingrel]

Haha l know…but Don’t forget …for the integrity of the draft………haha yeah and in the same one. How many prior access / academy players did Gold Coast get that we we’re denied access toooo yet crickets


Point is we have never been given proper compensation for our position based on the wins and % we have and that’s crap when your trying to rebuild…

more recently, the dogs with JUH,,,,,sure we got Thomas, but there were rumours of poor behaviour. WTF were we supposed to do there? Would have been laughing stocks if we didn't match....and the wash up, we traded out our high end pick for Polec and him. That is another big setback for our club, and then of course change the rules, so we can't have access to Sanders, yet the dogs got a #1 draft pick through it. Really hate putting our hand out, but the AFL just haven't been equitable at all.

 

[BigRedRoo]

board isnt leaking like a seive either and given the state we find ourselves in is holding up commendably. look at carlon board only 14 months ago, looking at sacking vossy, and matheson and co couldnt help themselves taking every effort to destabilize the ship.

bigger picture is we couldnt win a game we were mathematically most probable of winning ( were $3.00 in a 2 horse race ) but date due to a run of 9 unanswered goals that undoubtedly needs to be addressed was all over 10 mins into the 2nd quarter. point is if we lost by a point we would still be in a relatively similar position, same players , same options available, and so on,

It just isn’t. The VFL team seems have taken good steps forward, the AFLW team is among the best, sponsorship and membership are amazingly strong given the senior men’s team’s performance, the work to improve ground and facilities at Arden St has been fantastic.

I think further to this, off field instability is the last thing we need.
I feel we have the right people in the right places off field, can there be tweaking? Sure, but wholesale changes would be the death of the club.
We have a massive hole in the list, 24 to 29 year old player that should be players in their prime and the club leaders simply aren't there.
No amount of shuffling the off field deck chairs will change this, we need to go back to the draft and pick up some experienced talent to support the talented teenagers we have.

 

[Passmore]

more recently, the dogs with JUH,,,,,sure we got Thomas, but there were rumours of poor behaviour. WTF were we supposed to do there? Would have been laughing stocks if we didn't match....and the wash up, we traded out our high end pick for Polec and him. That is another big setback for our club, and then of course change the rules, so we can't have access to Sanders, yet the dogs got a #1 draft pick through it. Really hate putting our hand out, but the AFL just haven't been equitable at all.

We shouldn't have to put our hands.

Small market teams, who don't get the benefit of fixturing , luring top notch FA's etc should get compensated. Every year.

Sent from my SM-A908B using Tapatalk

 

[koshari]

On the bigger picture - it’s my 25th anniversary today. In 1999 my partner watched her team win the spoon and mine win the flag. Obviously since then she has enjoyed more footy highs than I have, but it’s reminded me that footy support is a long journey.

sheesh you dont get that for murder these days! congrats, we went to WA last week for 20th. in some ways feels eternal and others like yesterday, just like the 90s nmfc era i suppose.

 

[Sphynx]

Lol at those saying "we got 5 first round picks last year"....

3 of those players havent even played. One of them was only barely an adult. and they are meant to change our fortunes in 6 games?

Youre dreaming.

How bout when those 5 first round picks develop we bring them in to the conversation. Right now, those picks have no bearing on our circumstance.

Our current issues are the result of constantly changing coaches, poor development under Gavin Brown and Bradys poor drafting Pre Clarkson and players that are at times, coasting.

Is Clarkson the messiah? Probably not. But he was the best option we had at the time when you were frothing to sack Noble.

Leys ride with a coach for more than a hand full of games before burning yet another

Everyone was excitied from Noble to Clarkson.

The problem is there has been absolutely no difference in performance.

In fact, it may be worse.


Does Clarko have a better group of players than Noble? Probably.

Noble never had Sheezel, Larkey at his current level and a 25 year old LDU that should be hitting his prime.

 

[Sphynx]

Lol at those saying "we got 5 first round picks last year"....

3 of those players havent even played. One of them was only barely an adult. and they are meant to change our fortunes in 6 games?

Youre dreaming.

How bout when those 5 first round picks develop we bring them in to the conversation. Right now, those picks have no bearing on our circumstance.

Nobody is saying that.

But it's currency he could have used in any direction he wanted.

The direction he opted for was Dylan Stephens (who I know for a fact was on Clarko's wish list) and Zac Fisher.


It's really not too different to what he did in his final years at Hawthorn with Tom Scully, Tom Phillips and Chad Wingard.


Outside, unaccountable cats.

 

[giantroo]

Nobody is saying that.

But it's currency he could have used in any direction he wanted.

The direction he opted for was Dylan Stephens (who I know for a fact was on Clarko's wish list) and Zac Fisher.


It's really not too different to what he did in his final years at Hawthorn with Tom Scully, Tom Phillips and Chad Wingard.


Outside, unaccountable cats.

Who's to say they weren't the only ones interested in coming over? Who's coming over to this shitshow at the moment? Go back to his first interview he did on SEN with Whateley. He mentioned how bloody hard it was to get any player to come over.